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the oldest

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and strongest human emotion is fear

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and the oldest and strongest type of

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fear

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is trepidation of the unknown

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when we were children our parents told

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us that monsters didn't exist

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but we were sure that something was

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lurking under the bed or in the closet

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fear sees even if our eyes are closed

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welcome to the realm of the arcane

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my name is lon strickler join me as i

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examine

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unexplained creatures strange

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manifestations of remarkable realities

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imagine this next hour as a voyage of

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discovery to strange lands

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seeking not for new territory but for

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new knowledge of the supernatural come

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on board as we begin

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hey folks good evening and welcome to

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another episode of arcane radio

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i'm your host lon strickler and i thank

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you for joining me

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here on the paranormal king radio

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network

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listeners can now show their support for

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arcane radio becoming a patron

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simply go to phantoms and monsters at

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phantomsomemonsters.com

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and click the podbean patron banner

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now before i introduce my guest i want

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to mention an account i recently

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received

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uh i got a very interesting phone call

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from an eyewitness who i'll call wa

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or i'll just say wayne in fort

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lauderdale florida now

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this is in reference to an incident that

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occurred in

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1973 in douglasville georgia as well as

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continued ufo encounters culminating to

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present-day

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humanoid sightings in fort lauder fort

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lauderdale florida

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now in 1973

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wayne was in the back seat of his

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mother's car with his brother they were

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traveling south

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on powder spring highway towards

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douglasville georgia one early evening

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at dusk

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they began to notice cars speeding by

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them and driving recklessly in fact

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they witnessed one car careen off the

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road and flipped into a nearby field

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the boys looked out the back window and

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observed a huge salsa shaped craft

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hovering behind their car

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their mother hit the gas and headed

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directly to their home on hickory road

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in the hickory estates in douglasville

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georgia now they quickly exited the car

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and rushed inside

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the boy's mother telling him to go to

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the room

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upstairs and to stay there she called

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the local police to report what had

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happened and the police were very busy

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taking other calls

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from local residents reporting a flying

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craft over the neighborhood

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when the boy's mother got off the phone

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she heard loud noises coming from the

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roof she yelled for the boys to come

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downstairs fearing

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that they may be in danger all three ran

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outside and witnessed

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three short statured beings dressed in

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white

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nasal-like spacesuits without helmets

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which was standing on top of the roof

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now wayne stated

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that these beings looked perfectly human

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with regular facial features and slanted

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eyes

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they stood still and looked directly at

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wayne and his family

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they quickly went back into the house

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waiting for police

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when the police arrived it demanded that

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the families in the neighborhood stay

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indoors

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as they investigated the situation

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apparently the police told the boy's

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mother that they witnessed the three

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beings

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and that the federal authorities were on

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the way

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now in the meantime wayne and his

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brother were in their shared bedroom

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about the same time the police came into

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their house one of these

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beings came through the wall into the

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bedroom

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it didn't say anything but wayne said

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that we had a strange sensation and pos

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sensation and possibly lost time a small

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period lost time

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the brothers were paralyzed during the

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encounter and couldn't react

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when the being exited through the wall

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they regained their faculties and

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screamed running downstairs to their

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mother and the police

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one of the officers quickly went

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upstairs but found nothing

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a few hours later that same evening

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federal authorities arrived and

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questioned the families in the

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neighborhood including

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wayne and his family now wayne remembers

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that his father who had been at work

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during the incident was annoyed that

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federal authorities were in his own

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his father always maintained that the

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entire insult was some sort of mass

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hysteria

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and actually punished his sons when they

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mentioned the incident after the

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encounter wayne had an

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oozing develop on his ear it never

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healed it eventually started to expand

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in size

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until a year later a small horde

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chip-like

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object object broke through the skin

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he showed the object to his father who

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immediately threw the object in the

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trash

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and punished wayne severely

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about the same time uh and rain

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wayne recalls it to be in the summer

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wayne's brother spent the night outside

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the back of his father's

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open pickup truck as they gazed into the

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night the same

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salsa shaped craft descended from above

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and hovered above them

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wayne is positive that they lost time

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during this encounter

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these occasional ufo encounters have

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continued over the years

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now fast forward to current time wayne

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lives in fort lauderdale florida now

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now he has witnessed upside down

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funnel-shaped craft ascending

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from the ocean at different times he

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also reports

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that there have been humanoids seen

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throughout the fort lauderdale area

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recently he had a strange encounter with

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two

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women who he swears were not completely

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human

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because they were quite tall and had

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unusual facial features

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now when talked to other residents of

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the general area

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who have witnessed bizarre humanoids now

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this

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is an interesting scenario because i

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received a

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report of an unknown large humanoid

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scene and photographed

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from the backyard of the witness who was

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a local teacher

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and his daughter as they arrived home

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the humanoid was hanging onto a utility

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pole

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they scribed it as thick and body

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muscular

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and deflate the face was

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undistinguishable

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the being moved side slightly back and

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forth

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and was this was in the lauderdale

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states

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and occurred on june 15 2018

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it was early evening and the photograph

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was quickly captured by the daughter on

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her cell phone

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now the families of monsters 14 research

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team has attempted

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to adjust the light on the image in

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order to make it more visible

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we had determined uh though through

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area measurements later photographs that

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the being

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was at least eight foot in height in the

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crouching leg position

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now if you want to go to the blog the uh

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the photograph

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the original photographic life adjusted

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photograph

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are posted on the blog it's very

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interesting

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so let's get started tonight's guest

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joshua cutchen

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is a fortune researcher and author

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joshua is a north carolina native with a

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long-standing

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interest in fortiana he holds a master's

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degree

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in music literature and a master's in

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journalism from the university of

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georgia

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he is also a published composer and

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maintains an active performance schedule

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as a jazz and rock tuba player having

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appeared

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on eight albums and live concert dvds

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joshua has written three well-received

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books including his latest title

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thieves in the night a brief history of

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supernatural

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child abductions you can find his

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website

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at joshuacutchin.com

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so josh thanks for joining me uh lon

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it's an absolute pleasure you know there

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are certain people that uh

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i was listening to long before i first

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set a proverbial pen to paper

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writing any of the stuff and and you

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know i remember back in the days of uh

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of bte radio listening to you and

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everybody and so it's always a pleasure

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to get to talk to somebody and

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make that leap from listener to to guest

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so thank you so much for having me on

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well it's great to have you and uh you

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know i i've been

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enthused with your books in the past and

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this latest

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is it's it's interesting it's different

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you know it's unlike anything i've ever

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read before you know attempts to compare

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paranormal child abductions from

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antiquity through the modern area

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era and uh you know it focuses on the uh

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the fairy look folklore and alien

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abductions

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phenomena and particularly means of

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motivations behind

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kidnappings so uh

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there's there's a lot of other things

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involved too and

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this goes as far as global traditions

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sasquatch abductions

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and you know the well-known

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disappearances in national parks that

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uh dave pilates has uh covered in the

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4-1-1

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books of his so um tell me a little bit

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about the book

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um what motivated you to write the book

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in the first place

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yeah it's a bit of a it's a bit of a

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large data set to look at

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um i guess the main reason you know my

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last two books were on

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uh the role of food and drink and these

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paranormal paranormal encounters and

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then the

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the one prior to this one was about

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smells and different uh

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paranormal encounters ghosts ufos

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bigfoot etc

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and so everyone was expecting me to do a

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book on on uh

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you know sound or something some sort of

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other sensory thing

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and i just wanted to zig when everybody

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else thought i was gonna zag

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um just just to keep it fresh but the

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real the real impetus behind it is that

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i've always had a real

289
00:10:23,430 --> 00:10:21,760
uh soft spot in interest uh in fairy

290
00:10:24,550 --> 00:10:23,440
lore and especially specifically that

291
00:10:28,630 --> 00:10:24,560
sort of

292
00:10:31,430 --> 00:10:28,640
uh jacques valet um chris albeck

293
00:10:32,230 --> 00:10:31,440
sort of uh way and that uh that fairy

294
00:10:34,550 --> 00:10:32,240
lore and

295
00:10:36,069 --> 00:10:34,560
particularly the modern ufo phenomena or

296
00:10:36,949 --> 00:10:36,079
at least abduction accounts to be more

297
00:10:40,069 --> 00:10:36,959
specific uh

298
00:10:42,630 --> 00:10:40,079
overlap uh i've long believed that

299
00:10:43,509 --> 00:10:42,640
anything that you see in fairy lore you

300
00:10:46,150 --> 00:10:43,519
will find an

301
00:10:47,350 --> 00:10:46,160
analog for in abduction literature and

302
00:10:49,750 --> 00:10:47,360
vice versa

303
00:10:51,269 --> 00:10:49,760
not ufology necessarily because i i'm

304
00:10:52,870 --> 00:10:51,279
i'm much more open to the idea of the

305
00:10:54,790 --> 00:10:52,880
extraterrestrial hypothesis than i was

306
00:10:56,150 --> 00:10:54,800
at one point but um

307
00:10:57,750 --> 00:10:56,160
but i've always i've always felt that

308
00:10:58,069 --> 00:10:57,760
you can find these comparisons if you

309
00:10:59,910 --> 00:10:58,079
look

310
00:11:01,430 --> 00:10:59,920
closely enough at these two seemingly

311
00:11:03,190 --> 00:11:01,440
different phenomena but the one thing

312
00:11:03,910 --> 00:11:03,200
that i never really reconciled with in

313
00:11:06,310 --> 00:11:03,920
that sort of

314
00:11:07,829 --> 00:11:06,320
paranormal world view i had was the

315
00:11:10,230 --> 00:11:07,839
concept of the hybrid project

316
00:11:11,750 --> 00:11:10,240
the hybrid program and uh sort of the

317
00:11:13,509 --> 00:11:11,760
idea of the fairy changeling

318
00:11:14,949 --> 00:11:13,519
and so really what this was was trying

319
00:11:16,710 --> 00:11:14,959
to uh

320
00:11:18,630 --> 00:11:16,720
basically take a step back and find

321
00:11:19,829 --> 00:11:18,640
these motifs of child abduction from

322
00:11:21,750 --> 00:11:19,839
every continent

323
00:11:23,190 --> 00:11:21,760
uh but with a particular focus on the

324
00:11:25,030 --> 00:11:23,200
british isles

325
00:11:27,190 --> 00:11:25,040
and unpack all of this try to make it

326
00:11:27,990 --> 00:11:27,200
sort of your one-stop shop of changing

327
00:11:29,990 --> 00:11:28,000
lore

328
00:11:31,269 --> 00:11:30,000
specifically and of uh you know sort of

329
00:11:33,350 --> 00:11:31,279
preventative uh

330
00:11:34,870 --> 00:11:33,360
preventative methods to keep your

331
00:11:37,110 --> 00:11:34,880
children being taken by the fairies and

332
00:11:39,190 --> 00:11:37,120
then to walk that through step by step

333
00:11:41,030 --> 00:11:39,200
uh sort of the motifs that have reared

334
00:11:42,230 --> 00:11:41,040
their head in the modern abduction

335
00:11:43,670 --> 00:11:42,240
experience um

336
00:11:45,350 --> 00:11:43,680
it's not a perfect match but there are

337
00:11:46,150 --> 00:11:45,360
definitely some things that i think are

338
00:11:49,430 --> 00:11:46,160
worthy of

339
00:11:51,430 --> 00:11:49,440
of consideration well let's talk about

340
00:11:53,750 --> 00:11:51,440
the changing phenomena now

341
00:11:55,670 --> 00:11:53,760
where did it originate and does it occur

342
00:11:57,829 --> 00:11:55,680
in modern era

343
00:11:59,750 --> 00:11:57,839
well it's um so for anyone who's

344
00:12:01,190 --> 00:11:59,760
interested in sort of uh the background

345
00:12:02,710 --> 00:12:01,200
on the fairies which might help sort of

346
00:12:03,509 --> 00:12:02,720
put this in perspective uh our

347
00:12:04,790 --> 00:12:03,519
traditional

348
00:12:06,870 --> 00:12:04,800
view that we have of the fairies with

349
00:12:08,790 --> 00:12:06,880
this sort of tinkerbell-like tiny person

350
00:12:12,230 --> 00:12:08,800
with wings are very much

351
00:12:13,829 --> 00:12:12,240
a product of late uh 18th century

352
00:12:15,509 --> 00:12:13,839
children's books and whatnot the actual

353
00:12:16,870 --> 00:12:15,519
idea of the fairies what that were yes

354
00:12:18,389 --> 00:12:16,880
they were generally short but they were

355
00:12:20,069 --> 00:12:18,399
often quite nasty and one of the things

356
00:12:21,750 --> 00:12:20,079
that they loved to do was

357
00:12:22,949 --> 00:12:21,760
steal children and one of the most

358
00:12:24,949 --> 00:12:22,959
common means by which they stole

359
00:12:28,069 --> 00:12:24,959
children was by replacing a child with

360
00:12:29,269 --> 00:12:28,079
a changeling depending on the literature

361
00:12:30,949 --> 00:12:29,279
depending on the region

362
00:12:33,350 --> 00:12:30,959
the changeling usually was one of three

363
00:12:36,069 --> 00:12:33,360
things least common but not

364
00:12:37,110 --> 00:12:36,079
uncommon enough to not warrant mention

365
00:12:40,389 --> 00:12:37,120
is

366
00:12:42,069 --> 00:12:40,399
a lifeless inanimate

367
00:12:43,670 --> 00:12:42,079
chunk of wood or like a log but that's

368
00:12:45,509 --> 00:12:43,680
been cloaked with fairy glamour to a

369
00:12:46,710 --> 00:12:45,519
year as a child but it just sort of lays

370
00:12:48,069 --> 00:12:46,720
there in the bed

371
00:12:49,829 --> 00:12:48,079
the second thing that they replaced the

372
00:12:52,389 --> 00:12:49,839
child with um which you'll find more

373
00:12:53,590 --> 00:12:52,399
commonly was a sick fairy baby

374
00:12:55,509 --> 00:12:53,600
the most common thing that you find in

375
00:12:56,550 --> 00:12:55,519
this literature is an elderly fairy man

376
00:12:59,190 --> 00:12:56,560
so they would take

377
00:13:01,350 --> 00:12:59,200
the human child back to fairyland for a

378
00:13:03,910 --> 00:13:01,360
variety of different reasons um

379
00:13:04,870 --> 00:13:03,920
commonly the most common reasons that

380
00:13:07,910 --> 00:13:04,880
you hear about

381
00:13:10,310 --> 00:13:07,920
are to sort of uh re in re-inject the

382
00:13:12,069 --> 00:13:10,320
fairy bloodline with some extra vigor by

383
00:13:13,350 --> 00:13:12,079
bringing in you know neogenetic material

384
00:13:15,829 --> 00:13:13,360
from the human race

385
00:13:17,190 --> 00:13:15,839
um and they would have one of these

386
00:13:20,310 --> 00:13:17,200
three imposters

387
00:13:23,590 --> 00:13:20,320
left in the place of of the human child

388
00:13:25,670 --> 00:13:23,600
um in certain cases uh this sort of

389
00:13:27,509 --> 00:13:25,680
served a dual purpose role in fairy

390
00:13:29,750 --> 00:13:27,519
society because not only did

391
00:13:31,030 --> 00:13:29,760
they you know the human bloodline pulled

392
00:13:33,430 --> 00:13:31,040
into the fairy bloodline but

393
00:13:34,310 --> 00:13:33,440
thick fairy baby um would actually get

394
00:13:35,829 --> 00:13:34,320
the nourishment of

395
00:13:37,590 --> 00:13:35,839
human milk which was actually the only

396
00:13:38,069 --> 00:13:37,600
sort of sustenance that would that would

397
00:13:42,230 --> 00:13:38,079
uh

398
00:13:43,750 --> 00:13:42,240
fairy food in a lot of traditions is

399
00:13:45,590 --> 00:13:43,760
generally considered a sham

400
00:13:47,829 --> 00:13:45,600
uh once the glamour is removed it

401
00:13:49,509 --> 00:13:47,839
appears as leaves and sticks and worms

402
00:13:51,350 --> 00:13:49,519
and just junk so

403
00:13:52,949 --> 00:13:51,360
by extension fairy milk is a sham so

404
00:13:55,750 --> 00:13:52,959
fairy babies need

405
00:13:57,269 --> 00:13:55,760
human milk um so in a place no matter

406
00:13:59,829 --> 00:13:57,279
what it was if it was a stalk

407
00:14:00,790 --> 00:13:59,839
or a uh or a fairy baby or an elderly

408
00:14:04,230 --> 00:14:00,800
fairy man this

409
00:14:06,949 --> 00:14:04,240
imposter left in the crib would uh cry

410
00:14:07,829 --> 00:14:06,959
incessantly would show signs of stunted

411
00:14:09,750 --> 00:14:07,839
development

412
00:14:10,870 --> 00:14:09,760
would eat more than anyone else in the

413
00:14:12,949 --> 00:14:10,880
household

414
00:14:14,069 --> 00:14:12,959
and uh would just generally bring about

415
00:14:15,590 --> 00:14:14,079
sort of bad luck

416
00:14:17,110 --> 00:14:15,600
uh they would they were generally

417
00:14:17,509 --> 00:14:17,120
listless and wouldn't move around about

418
00:14:19,350 --> 00:14:17,519
much

419
00:14:20,389 --> 00:14:19,360
unless you happened to spy them when

420
00:14:21,670 --> 00:14:20,399
they thought they were all alone in

421
00:14:23,269 --> 00:14:21,680
which case they would dance around

422
00:14:24,069 --> 00:14:23,279
merrily and play on the pipes and such

423
00:14:26,550 --> 00:14:24,079
things

424
00:14:28,470 --> 00:14:26,560
sort of the changeling um the sort of

425
00:14:29,990 --> 00:14:28,480
changing motif in a nutshell it varies

426
00:14:31,910 --> 00:14:30,000
from culture to culture and of course

427
00:14:33,430 --> 00:14:31,920
within the within that you have means of

428
00:14:34,470 --> 00:14:33,440
you know how to prevent this from

429
00:14:36,710 --> 00:14:34,480
happening what happens

430
00:14:38,069 --> 00:14:36,720
if with your child if you know you do

431
00:14:38,310 --> 00:14:38,079
get a changeling how do you get rid of

432
00:14:39,990 --> 00:14:38,320
it

433
00:14:41,509 --> 00:14:40,000
and then of course the more pragmatic

434
00:14:44,310 --> 00:14:41,519
issues of you know

435
00:14:44,710 --> 00:14:44,320
what were these stories also describing

436
00:14:47,590 --> 00:14:44,720
some

437
00:14:49,030 --> 00:14:47,600
real life medical conditions um even if

438
00:14:50,230 --> 00:14:49,040
there is a supernatural component to

439
00:14:51,509 --> 00:14:50,240
some of these stories

440
00:14:53,110 --> 00:14:51,519
at least some of them seem to be

441
00:14:54,629 --> 00:14:53,120
touching upon actual developmental

442
00:14:55,750 --> 00:14:54,639
disabilities as well so just trying to

443
00:14:57,430 --> 00:14:55,760
unpack

444
00:15:00,310 --> 00:14:57,440
all that have we got another two hours

445
00:15:03,189 --> 00:15:00,320
here line or yeah really

446
00:15:04,069 --> 00:15:03,199
just go ahead i mean uh i you know i

447
00:15:05,750 --> 00:15:04,079
tell you

448
00:15:07,590 --> 00:15:05,760
this book has got a lot of different

449
00:15:08,310 --> 00:15:07,600
things in there i have never heard of in

450
00:15:10,470 --> 00:15:08,320
fact

451
00:15:11,750 --> 00:15:10,480
i was really interested when you started

452
00:15:14,389 --> 00:15:11,760
talking about these uh

453
00:15:16,150 --> 00:15:14,399
fairy and we fought child abductions

454
00:15:16,470 --> 00:15:16,160
where and in particular where it stated

455
00:15:20,550 --> 00:15:16,480
that

456
00:15:22,710 --> 00:15:20,560
they they prefer unbaptized children

457
00:15:24,150 --> 00:15:22,720
yeah that was generally speaking among

458
00:15:25,750 --> 00:15:24,160
the means of preventing

459
00:15:27,189 --> 00:15:25,760
fairy abductions that was the most

460
00:15:28,790 --> 00:15:27,199
potent you had other things like placing

461
00:15:29,590 --> 00:15:28,800
iron in the crib some really horrifying

462
00:15:30,790 --> 00:15:29,600
ones about

463
00:15:32,150 --> 00:15:30,800
one of the favorite ones i like to talk

464
00:15:33,910 --> 00:15:32,160
about was the idea that if you dangle

465
00:15:35,670 --> 00:15:33,920
the point of a knife just above your

466
00:15:37,030 --> 00:15:35,680
of your child's face and the crib would

467
00:15:37,590 --> 00:15:37,040
uh somehow prevent them from fairy

468
00:15:40,949 --> 00:15:37,600
abduction

469
00:15:43,189 --> 00:15:40,959
but uh but generally speaking baptism

470
00:15:44,470 --> 00:15:43,199
was the most sure-fire way of

471
00:15:46,710 --> 00:15:44,480
keeping your children safe from the

472
00:15:49,590 --> 00:15:46,720
fairies um if you look at this from

473
00:15:51,110 --> 00:15:49,600
a sort of uh a sort of folkloric view

474
00:15:53,189 --> 00:15:51,120
and for anybody who's wondering and

475
00:15:54,389 --> 00:15:53,199
isn't familiar with my work i i sit

476
00:15:54,710 --> 00:15:54,399
somewhere at the intersection of there

477
00:15:56,710 --> 00:15:54,720
being

478
00:15:58,550 --> 00:15:56,720
an objective reality to these things

479
00:16:00,470 --> 00:15:58,560
sort of a supernatural reality but also

480
00:16:01,829 --> 00:16:00,480
i think that folklore and uh

481
00:16:03,509 --> 00:16:01,839
culture plays a huge role in these

482
00:16:05,269 --> 00:16:03,519
things as well um

483
00:16:07,509 --> 00:16:05,279
you know it's interesting you look at uh

484
00:16:08,069 --> 00:16:07,519
sort of this period between birth and

485
00:16:09,910 --> 00:16:08,079
baptism

486
00:16:11,670 --> 00:16:09,920
and that's sort of a liminal period in a

487
00:16:12,389 --> 00:16:11,680
child's life they're born into the human

488
00:16:15,829 --> 00:16:12,399
world

489
00:16:16,389 --> 00:16:15,839
they're sort of in that liminal space

490
00:16:18,470 --> 00:16:16,399
which

491
00:16:20,389 --> 00:16:18,480
generally is where paranormal things

492
00:16:22,230 --> 00:16:20,399
tend to dwell i mean you look at

493
00:16:23,509 --> 00:16:22,240
you know that's the reason that trolls

494
00:16:25,110 --> 00:16:23,519
are under cross are

495
00:16:26,870 --> 00:16:25,120
under bridges rather it's the reason

496
00:16:27,670 --> 00:16:26,880
that you sell your soul to the devil to

497
00:16:29,509 --> 00:16:27,680
gain

498
00:16:30,790 --> 00:16:29,519
great guitar skills at the crossroads at

499
00:16:33,030 --> 00:16:30,800
midnight like these are these are the

500
00:16:35,030 --> 00:16:33,040
motifs that you see which i think again

501
00:16:36,310 --> 00:16:35,040
not only is folklorically important but

502
00:16:39,509 --> 00:16:36,320
you actually see this in modern

503
00:16:41,509 --> 00:16:39,519
reports too about people being in um

504
00:16:42,949 --> 00:16:41,519
well for example travel is another time

505
00:16:44,310 --> 00:16:42,959
that's a liminal period you're neither

506
00:16:45,749 --> 00:16:44,320
one place nor another you're in the

507
00:16:47,189 --> 00:16:45,759
period of traveling and that's why you

508
00:16:48,629 --> 00:16:47,199
see roadside crossings and stuff there's

509
00:16:50,870 --> 00:16:48,639
something about whatever this phenomena

510
00:16:51,990 --> 00:16:50,880
is that's really attracted to liminality

511
00:16:53,829 --> 00:16:52,000
so that was one of the things that you

512
00:16:55,990 --> 00:16:53,839
could do is as soon as your child was

513
00:16:57,110 --> 00:16:56,000
born have it you know baptized asap

514
00:16:58,870 --> 00:16:57,120
because otherwise you're sort of

515
00:17:01,910 --> 00:16:58,880
surrendering domain of it to the to

516
00:17:05,029 --> 00:17:01,920
these supernatural forces

517
00:17:07,429 --> 00:17:05,039
um overall how much did religion play

518
00:17:09,990 --> 00:17:07,439
into these mythologies

519
00:17:12,150 --> 00:17:10,000
you know it's curious um you don't find

520
00:17:14,949 --> 00:17:12,160
the changing motif per se

521
00:17:16,390 --> 00:17:14,959
um in any legends that predate the

522
00:17:18,549 --> 00:17:16,400
appearance of christianity in the

523
00:17:20,630 --> 00:17:18,559
british isles

524
00:17:22,710 --> 00:17:20,640
like i said there are similar motifs of

525
00:17:24,710 --> 00:17:22,720
this child substitution that you'll find

526
00:17:26,309 --> 00:17:24,720
in the middle east and in africa we're

527
00:17:27,189 --> 00:17:26,319
setting aside those just looking at sort

528
00:17:30,470 --> 00:17:27,199
of the

529
00:17:33,990 --> 00:17:30,480
the ireland scotland england um

530
00:17:35,190 --> 00:17:34,000
constellation here um so what so it's

531
00:17:37,990 --> 00:17:35,200
almost as if the the

532
00:17:39,430 --> 00:17:38,000
in that part of the world it was solely

533
00:17:42,710 --> 00:17:39,440
the introduction

534
00:17:44,630 --> 00:17:42,720
of this this um this motif uh

535
00:17:46,310 --> 00:17:44,640
by by christianity i mean actually the

536
00:17:48,710 --> 00:17:46,320
actual term uh

537
00:17:50,230 --> 00:17:48,720
changeling um appeared in early

538
00:17:51,909 --> 00:17:50,240
christian writings um and

539
00:17:53,830 --> 00:17:51,919
the concept was actually sort of

540
00:17:56,230 --> 00:17:53,840
introduced to to christendom

541
00:17:57,510 --> 00:17:56,240
uh back around the 13th of sin 13th

542
00:18:00,549 --> 00:17:57,520
through william of

543
00:18:03,029 --> 00:18:00,559
aaron uh a parisian bishop actually

544
00:18:04,150 --> 00:18:03,039
talked about the idea that uh incubi

545
00:18:06,950 --> 00:18:04,160
demons would

546
00:18:07,909 --> 00:18:06,960
uh actually uh take human children and

547
00:18:10,230 --> 00:18:07,919
leave behind

548
00:18:12,070 --> 00:18:10,240
uh what he called cambio which is from

549
00:18:14,230 --> 00:18:12,080
the latin word kambiti meaning

550
00:18:16,470 --> 00:18:14,240
the exchanged um so even though you'll

551
00:18:18,470 --> 00:18:16,480
find that this motif in some christian

552
00:18:19,750 --> 00:18:18,480
cultures that really really concretized

553
00:18:21,350 --> 00:18:19,760
in that part of the world around

554
00:18:22,630 --> 00:18:21,360
christianity um to the extent that you

555
00:18:23,990 --> 00:18:22,640
know martin luther

556
00:18:25,750 --> 00:18:24,000
actually claimed to have seen and

557
00:18:26,950 --> 00:18:25,760
touched a changeling himself so

558
00:18:30,870 --> 00:18:26,960
you don't get much you don't get much

559
00:18:33,990 --> 00:18:32,470
than martin luther um but it's

560
00:18:35,270 --> 00:18:34,000
interesting because

561
00:18:37,110 --> 00:18:35,280
as much as you know you sort of want to

562
00:18:37,830 --> 00:18:37,120
blame this blame for lack of a better

563
00:18:39,750 --> 00:18:37,840
term

564
00:18:42,470 --> 00:18:39,760
blame this on sort of uh christianity

565
00:18:44,630 --> 00:18:42,480
corrupting these pagan concepts uh

566
00:18:46,150 --> 00:18:44,640
you know it's the roots seem to go even

567
00:18:47,270 --> 00:18:46,160
deeper than that because in another

568
00:18:50,310 --> 00:18:47,280
abrahamic religion

569
00:18:51,669 --> 00:18:50,320
uh you know islam you'll actually find

570
00:18:53,750 --> 00:18:51,679
stories that sound like they're right

571
00:18:55,750 --> 00:18:53,760
out of ireland about the gym

572
00:18:57,990 --> 00:18:55,760
taking uh human babies and replacing

573
00:18:58,710 --> 00:18:58,000
them with uh with their own offspring

574
00:19:00,230 --> 00:18:58,720
and the

575
00:19:02,150 --> 00:19:00,240
means by which you got your children

576
00:19:03,669 --> 00:19:02,160
back you know in this scenario are

577
00:19:05,110 --> 00:19:03,679
almost exactly the same

578
00:19:06,870 --> 00:19:05,120
um some of the things that you would do

579
00:19:08,390 --> 00:19:06,880
to prevent your children from being

580
00:19:09,990 --> 00:19:08,400
taken are almost exactly the same both

581
00:19:11,110 --> 00:19:10,000
in ireland and in certain parts

582
00:19:13,830 --> 00:19:11,120
of the middle east you would actually

583
00:19:15,350 --> 00:19:13,840
dress your male child as a female

584
00:19:17,270 --> 00:19:15,360
because it was generally considered that

585
00:19:19,029 --> 00:19:17,280
the fairies wanted to abduct

586
00:19:21,029 --> 00:19:19,039
little boys and they want to abduct

587
00:19:22,549 --> 00:19:21,039
little girls

588
00:19:25,029 --> 00:19:22,559
you know that's what i liked about this

589
00:19:27,830 --> 00:19:25,039
book because you started back

590
00:19:28,950 --> 00:19:27,840
to uh lilith and other deities mentioned

591
00:19:31,350 --> 00:19:28,960
the abrahamic and

592
00:19:32,789 --> 00:19:31,360
sumerian beliefs up to the current day

593
00:19:34,870 --> 00:19:32,799
legends which

594
00:19:37,190 --> 00:19:34,880
i guess you can include slenderman i

595
00:19:37,990 --> 00:19:37,200
mean it's just a lot of different things

596
00:19:40,950 --> 00:19:38,000
in there i i

597
00:19:43,350 --> 00:19:40,960
tell i encourage anybody and everybody

598
00:19:45,830 --> 00:19:43,360
to read this book because if you're

599
00:19:47,430 --> 00:19:45,840
if you are interested in this type of

600
00:19:48,390 --> 00:19:47,440
thing you've got about everything you

601
00:19:51,350 --> 00:19:48,400
can think of

602
00:19:52,150 --> 00:19:51,360
in this book it's it's very interesting

603
00:19:53,270 --> 00:19:52,160
i really

604
00:19:56,950 --> 00:19:53,280
really appreciate that a lot it means a

605
00:19:58,870 --> 00:19:56,960
lot coming from you this um

606
00:20:00,150 --> 00:19:58,880
now you did talk about the methods used

607
00:20:03,830 --> 00:20:00,160
to discourage child

608
00:20:05,669 --> 00:20:03,840
child abduction did uh in

609
00:20:06,950 --> 00:20:05,679
you know the objections for the most

610
00:20:08,950 --> 00:20:06,960
part

611
00:20:10,470 --> 00:20:08,960
from what you believe are for what

612
00:20:13,909 --> 00:20:10,480
you've researched

613
00:20:15,350 --> 00:20:13,919
is for uh to obtain new blood and rigor

614
00:20:18,549 --> 00:20:15,360
and hybrids

615
00:20:20,070 --> 00:20:18,559
what about infanticide how much does

616
00:20:21,909 --> 00:20:20,080
that have to do with it

617
00:20:23,510 --> 00:20:21,919
yeah so one of the things that if you if

618
00:20:24,149 --> 00:20:23,520
you read enough of these changeling

619
00:20:27,750 --> 00:20:24,159
stories

620
00:20:29,669 --> 00:20:27,760
um it becomes incredibly

621
00:20:31,590 --> 00:20:29,679
and soberingly apparent that some of

622
00:20:33,110 --> 00:20:31,600
them are describing people with actual

623
00:20:33,430 --> 00:20:33,120
developmental disabilities that were

624
00:20:35,110 --> 00:20:33,440
just

625
00:20:37,190 --> 00:20:35,120
generally conceived seen as a drain on

626
00:20:38,950 --> 00:20:37,200
the family i mean you've got to look at

627
00:20:40,549 --> 00:20:38,960
the sort of time period and especially

628
00:20:41,350 --> 00:20:40,559
the place where this lore flourished

629
00:20:44,230 --> 00:20:41,360
like ireland

630
00:20:45,750 --> 00:20:44,240
um and how many people were oppressed

631
00:20:47,190 --> 00:20:45,760
and living in poverty and the idea of

632
00:20:48,950 --> 00:20:47,200
having an extra mouth to feed that

633
00:20:50,789 --> 00:20:48,960
wasn't going to contribute to working in

634
00:20:51,990 --> 00:20:50,799
the fields that wasn't going to help i'm

635
00:20:53,270 --> 00:20:52,000
going to sort of earn their way for lack

636
00:20:56,390 --> 00:20:53,280
of a better term

637
00:20:58,710 --> 00:20:56,400
and uh it becomes a real a real reality

638
00:20:59,909 --> 00:20:58,720
um and so it's a part of part of what i

639
00:21:02,070 --> 00:20:59,919
try to do in the in the

640
00:21:03,190 --> 00:21:02,080
this book is to go through the different

641
00:21:05,029 --> 00:21:03,200
candidates that there were because

642
00:21:06,870 --> 00:21:05,039
everybody wants to pin changelings on

643
00:21:08,230 --> 00:21:06,880
one sort of medical condition there are

644
00:21:09,909 --> 00:21:08,240
several um

645
00:21:11,590 --> 00:21:09,919
and in fact it probably was a

646
00:21:13,510 --> 00:21:11,600
combination of these things plus

647
00:21:14,950 --> 00:21:13,520
i suspect that in some cases there was

648
00:21:17,110 --> 00:21:14,960
an actual paranormal

649
00:21:17,990 --> 00:21:17,120
supernatural angle which um i try to

650
00:21:20,230 --> 00:21:18,000
make sure that

651
00:21:22,070 --> 00:21:20,240
that's abundantly clear but back to

652
00:21:25,830 --> 00:21:22,080
original point about infanticide

653
00:21:27,669 --> 00:21:25,840
um it was astonishingly common

654
00:21:29,350 --> 00:21:27,679
in ireland and if you wanted to get rid

655
00:21:30,950 --> 00:21:29,360
of this child for whatever reason you

656
00:21:32,470 --> 00:21:30,960
could say that you were just trying to

657
00:21:33,669 --> 00:21:32,480
put the fairy out of it or that you were

658
00:21:34,870 --> 00:21:33,679
trying to get your own child back

659
00:21:36,549 --> 00:21:34,880
because you suspected that it was a

660
00:21:40,149 --> 00:21:36,559
changeling people actually

661
00:21:42,070 --> 00:21:40,159
were found not guilty in certain cases

662
00:21:43,750 --> 00:21:42,080
of killing children because they thought

663
00:21:46,230 --> 00:21:43,760
that they were trying to uh

664
00:21:47,990 --> 00:21:46,240
trying to put their their house back in

665
00:21:49,190 --> 00:21:48,000
order with their actual child

666
00:21:51,430 --> 00:21:49,200
to sort of put this in perspective

667
00:21:51,830 --> 00:21:51,440
there's a incredibly sobering statistic

668
00:21:54,870 --> 00:21:51,840
that

669
00:21:56,710 --> 00:21:54,880
i always bring up um there is a

670
00:21:58,470 --> 00:21:56,720
scholar named elaine farrell who wrote

671
00:22:00,149 --> 00:21:58,480
this book called a most diabolical deed

672
00:22:00,789 --> 00:22:00,159
and in her survey and analysis she

673
00:22:04,950 --> 00:22:00,799
looked at a

674
00:22:07,110 --> 00:22:04,960
50-year time period 1850 to 1900

675
00:22:08,789 --> 00:22:07,120
and during that period the cases that

676
00:22:11,909 --> 00:22:08,799
she found of children who were killed

677
00:22:12,470 --> 00:22:11,919
less than three years old over 50 years

678
00:22:15,510 --> 00:22:12,480
was

679
00:22:17,029 --> 00:22:15,520
over 4 500 cases of child murder

680
00:22:18,710 --> 00:22:17,039
um and this is on an island that's about

681
00:22:19,669 --> 00:22:18,720
the size of indiana to sort of put that

682
00:22:21,830 --> 00:22:19,679
in perspective so

683
00:22:23,510 --> 00:22:21,840
and again if if a child was three years

684
00:22:25,110 --> 00:22:23,520
and a half three and a half years old

685
00:22:27,190 --> 00:22:25,120
they didn't get included in her survey

686
00:22:29,830 --> 00:22:27,200
in this particular time period so

687
00:22:32,630 --> 00:22:29,840
it was astonishingly uh tragically

688
00:22:38,549 --> 00:22:35,669
um i also found interesting where you

689
00:22:41,110 --> 00:22:38,559
had in there but the restoration

690
00:22:42,950 --> 00:22:41,120
ato after an abducted child was

691
00:22:44,310 --> 00:22:42,960
retrieved can you go into that a little

692
00:22:45,990 --> 00:22:44,320
bit

693
00:22:47,430 --> 00:22:46,000
i mean yeah so so sort of playing off

694
00:22:50,470 --> 00:22:47,440
this um i mean

695
00:22:52,390 --> 00:22:50,480
it's it reminds you a lot of the

696
00:22:53,990 --> 00:22:52,400
the witch hunts and the in the fact that

697
00:22:56,710 --> 00:22:54,000
uh to prove

698
00:22:57,110 --> 00:22:56,720
to prove that you weren't uh some sort

699
00:23:00,390 --> 00:22:57,120
of

700
00:23:02,149 --> 00:23:00,400
you know in inhuman other um that

701
00:23:04,230 --> 00:23:02,159
sometimes the means by which you were

702
00:23:04,950 --> 00:23:04,240
brought back would actually kill you oh

703
00:23:06,470 --> 00:23:04,960
well

704
00:23:08,230 --> 00:23:06,480
i guess it wasn't a changing after all

705
00:23:11,110 --> 00:23:08,240
but the kids did um

706
00:23:13,110 --> 00:23:11,120
you know and and you'll find basically

707
00:23:13,909 --> 00:23:13,120
all of them center around abuse because

708
00:23:20,950 --> 00:23:13,919
the primary

709
00:23:22,070 --> 00:23:20,960
the fairy folk would see one of their

710
00:23:25,830 --> 00:23:22,080
own being mistreated

711
00:23:27,750 --> 00:23:25,840
and go into rush a rush to rescue them

712
00:23:28,950 --> 00:23:27,760
so you'll find things like simple

713
00:23:32,390 --> 00:23:28,960
beatings you'll find

714
00:23:34,149 --> 00:23:32,400
things like taking hot iron pokers and

715
00:23:36,310 --> 00:23:34,159
and burning the child or branding the

716
00:23:38,870 --> 00:23:36,320
child you'll find people who literally

717
00:23:39,990 --> 00:23:38,880
would bake children above a fireplace or

718
00:23:41,909 --> 00:23:40,000
put them on a griddle

719
00:23:43,269 --> 00:23:41,919
because the idea was that the changing

720
00:23:44,870 --> 00:23:43,279
would rush up the chimney and left on

721
00:23:45,830 --> 00:23:44,880
your doorstep would be your own human

722
00:23:48,950 --> 00:23:45,840
child

723
00:23:51,430 --> 00:23:48,960
with urine

724
00:23:53,029 --> 00:23:51,440
uh the administration of foxglove which

725
00:23:55,830 --> 00:23:53,039
is digitalis it's actually

726
00:23:56,630 --> 00:23:55,840
actually a poison uh would be put either

727
00:23:58,950 --> 00:23:56,640
in the ear

728
00:24:00,070 --> 00:23:58,960
or under the tongue or any any sort of

729
00:24:01,669 --> 00:24:00,080
any sort of things like that so

730
00:24:03,430 --> 00:24:01,679
basically if it caused pain it was

731
00:24:05,830 --> 00:24:03,440
generally considered a way

732
00:24:07,269 --> 00:24:05,840
to expel the changelings now having said

733
00:24:10,230 --> 00:24:07,279
this worse of course

734
00:24:11,590 --> 00:24:10,240
more um there were of course more benign

735
00:24:13,590 --> 00:24:11,600
methods as well

736
00:24:14,630 --> 00:24:13,600
one of the things that you'll often find

737
00:24:16,950 --> 00:24:14,640
is this motif

738
00:24:18,070 --> 00:24:16,960
called the the brewery of eggshells and

739
00:24:19,430 --> 00:24:18,080
the reason it's called the brewery of

740
00:24:21,110 --> 00:24:19,440
the egg shells is that

741
00:24:22,470 --> 00:24:21,120
generally speaking it was believed that

742
00:24:25,590 --> 00:24:22,480
changelings were old

743
00:24:27,269 --> 00:24:25,600
fairy men right so the idea would be to

744
00:24:29,029 --> 00:24:27,279
get them to not act like a child and

745
00:24:30,830 --> 00:24:29,039
somehow betray their age and the best

746
00:24:32,470 --> 00:24:30,840
way to do this was to do something

747
00:24:35,110 --> 00:24:32,480
nonsensical

748
00:24:36,789 --> 00:24:35,120
so you'll see this method of if you want

749
00:24:39,750 --> 00:24:36,799
to simplify it the most

750
00:24:40,230 --> 00:24:39,760
you have this changing child watching

751
00:24:44,230 --> 00:24:40,240
it's

752
00:24:46,470 --> 00:24:44,240
better term arranging

753
00:24:48,230 --> 00:24:46,480
some sort of small vessels and putting

754
00:24:48,950 --> 00:24:48,240
food stuff in it so the way this often

755
00:24:52,630 --> 00:24:48,960
plays out

756
00:24:54,149 --> 00:24:52,640
is uh a mother will put porridge in a

757
00:24:56,230 --> 00:24:54,159
bunch of eggshells

758
00:24:58,630 --> 00:24:56,240
and the changeling will watch it and and

759
00:25:00,870 --> 00:24:58,640
eventually say something like you know

760
00:25:02,870 --> 00:25:00,880
this is uh this makes neither sense nor

761
00:25:04,630 --> 00:25:02,880
i've seen the acorn before the oak

762
00:25:06,070 --> 00:25:04,640
but this makes neither sense nor joke

763
00:25:07,590 --> 00:25:06,080
you know speaking in this sing-songy

764
00:25:08,710 --> 00:25:07,600
pattern which says that hey i'm really

765
00:25:09,350 --> 00:25:08,720
old sometimes they'd say i've been

766
00:25:11,669 --> 00:25:09,360
around

767
00:25:13,510 --> 00:25:11,679
4 000 years and i've never seen such

768
00:25:14,230 --> 00:25:13,520
such bizarre behavior of someone trying

769
00:25:15,909 --> 00:25:14,240
to make

770
00:25:17,110 --> 00:25:15,919
porridge and eggshells and of course you

771
00:25:18,549 --> 00:25:17,120
know you'll find different variations on

772
00:25:21,510 --> 00:25:18,559
this sometimes it's not eggshell

773
00:25:22,549 --> 00:25:21,520
sometimes it's shellfish sometimes it's

774
00:25:24,070 --> 00:25:22,559
acorns

775
00:25:26,950 --> 00:25:24,080
sometimes it's not porridge sometimes

776
00:25:29,669 --> 00:25:26,960
it's you know just simply boiling water

777
00:25:30,950 --> 00:25:29,679
sometimes it's uh it's it's heating oil

778
00:25:32,710 --> 00:25:30,960
but the idea is to do something so

779
00:25:35,110 --> 00:25:32,720
nonsensical that the that the changeling

780
00:25:36,630 --> 00:25:35,120
has to remark there's a there's a common

781
00:25:38,390 --> 00:25:36,640
uh variant that you'll find in the

782
00:25:40,789 --> 00:25:38,400
arctic circle where you were supposed to

783
00:25:42,230 --> 00:25:40,799
lash together rods to form this gigantic

784
00:25:44,470 --> 00:25:42,240
spoon that literally goes from the

785
00:25:46,149 --> 00:25:44,480
porridge pot all the way up the chimney

786
00:25:48,470 --> 00:25:46,159
and at that point the changeling will

787
00:25:50,230 --> 00:25:48,480
say that you know i was here before this

788
00:25:51,510 --> 00:25:50,240
forest was born and i was here before

789
00:25:53,350 --> 00:25:51,520
this lake had formed

790
00:25:54,630 --> 00:25:53,360
but i've never seen such a long spoon in

791
00:25:56,070 --> 00:25:54,640
my all my years

792
00:25:57,909 --> 00:25:56,080
and at that you know either you could

793
00:26:00,390 --> 00:25:57,919
start beating it

794
00:26:01,269 --> 00:26:00,400
or uh sometimes uh sometimes in these

795
00:26:03,430 --> 00:26:01,279
cases

796
00:26:04,950 --> 00:26:03,440
uh the actually just being called out

797
00:26:06,390 --> 00:26:04,960
like that the changing would flee at

798
00:26:08,149 --> 00:26:06,400
having been discovered

799
00:26:10,070 --> 00:26:08,159
and those are the pernicious stories

800
00:26:11,149 --> 00:26:10,080
that suggest that there was something

801
00:26:14,310 --> 00:26:11,159
besides just

802
00:26:17,669 --> 00:26:14,320
misrecognized medical conditions

803
00:26:20,950 --> 00:26:17,679
in these stories and obviously obviously

804
00:26:21,750 --> 00:26:20,960
the changeling um the changeling legend

805
00:26:24,870 --> 00:26:21,760
was used

806
00:26:27,430 --> 00:26:24,880
to uh to to

807
00:26:28,789 --> 00:26:27,440
to kill children quite frankly but there

808
00:26:29,510 --> 00:26:28,799
are these stories where the where the

809
00:26:30,950 --> 00:26:29,520
changelings

810
00:26:33,029 --> 00:26:30,960
behave quite differently than you would

811
00:26:33,990 --> 00:26:33,039
expect from any sort of child with uh

812
00:26:35,909 --> 00:26:34,000
with a uh

813
00:26:37,350 --> 00:26:35,919
with a developmental disability and in

814
00:26:37,990 --> 00:26:37,360
these methods where they talk or they

815
00:26:39,669 --> 00:26:38,000
laugh or they

816
00:26:41,590 --> 00:26:39,679
remark on their age that doesn't quite

817
00:26:44,470 --> 00:26:41,600
fit that that uh

818
00:26:46,070 --> 00:26:44,480
that common theory that we're solely

819
00:26:47,909 --> 00:26:46,080
dealing with misrecognized medical

820
00:26:51,029 --> 00:26:47,919
conditions

821
00:26:52,070 --> 00:26:51,039
now when these children were supposedly

822
00:26:55,350 --> 00:26:52,080
taken where they

823
00:26:57,830 --> 00:26:55,360
where were they supposed to be held at

824
00:26:58,390 --> 00:26:57,840
so the simple answer is is fairyland but

825
00:27:01,269 --> 00:26:58,400
you know

826
00:27:02,549 --> 00:27:01,279
what does that mean um there's a strong

827
00:27:05,430 --> 00:27:02,559
strong correlation

828
00:27:06,710 --> 00:27:05,440
uh which i think is sort of a hint as to

829
00:27:06,950 --> 00:27:06,720
it's sort of where i'm leaning with my

830
00:27:09,110 --> 00:27:06,960
own

831
00:27:10,549 --> 00:27:09,120
sort of pan paranormal concepts of

832
00:27:12,310 --> 00:27:10,559
what's going on with all these different

833
00:27:14,390 --> 00:27:12,320
phenomena um but

834
00:27:16,549 --> 00:27:14,400
setting that aside for now there's a

835
00:27:18,870 --> 00:27:16,559
strong fairy uh correlation with

836
00:27:20,549 --> 00:27:18,880
the dead and because of this they would

837
00:27:23,430 --> 00:27:20,559
often be found at

838
00:27:25,350 --> 00:27:23,440
ancient ruins um again very similar to

839
00:27:26,870 --> 00:27:25,360
the gen in the middle east ancient ruins

840
00:27:27,590 --> 00:27:26,880
burial mounds and the like and because

841
00:27:30,389 --> 00:27:27,600
of that

842
00:27:32,470 --> 00:27:30,399
it was often claimed that fairyland was

843
00:27:34,470 --> 00:27:32,480
subterranean but you'll never really

844
00:27:36,070 --> 00:27:34,480
find i mean you'll find plenty of

845
00:27:38,070 --> 00:27:36,080
stories where people descend into a

846
00:27:40,630 --> 00:27:38,080
fairy mound and they'll enter into fairy

847
00:27:42,630 --> 00:27:40,640
land but you know that it almost

848
00:27:43,990 --> 00:27:42,640
sort of reads like stories talking about

849
00:27:45,510 --> 00:27:44,000
uh people descending into another

850
00:27:49,350 --> 00:27:45,520
dimension

851
00:27:52,310 --> 00:27:49,360
okay interesting

852
00:27:54,470 --> 00:27:52,320
well you know you you you also got into

853
00:27:57,669 --> 00:27:54,480
supernatural abduction

854
00:27:58,070 --> 00:27:57,679
and uh which is demons entities and i

855
00:27:59,669 --> 00:27:58,080
mean

856
00:28:01,830 --> 00:27:59,679
you were talking you were talking about

857
00:28:05,350 --> 00:28:01,840
the asiatic african latin

858
00:28:05,909 --> 00:28:05,360
american cultures uh i'm not going to

859
00:28:07,830 --> 00:28:05,919
have you

860
00:28:09,510 --> 00:28:07,840
explain all of it unless you really want

861
00:28:12,149 --> 00:28:09,520
to but

862
00:28:13,830 --> 00:28:12,159
what are the most interesting what are

863
00:28:15,110 --> 00:28:13,840
the most interesting aspects of that

864
00:28:17,990 --> 00:28:15,120
that you found

865
00:28:19,510 --> 00:28:18,000
i think my favorite um changeling that

866
00:28:23,350 --> 00:28:19,520
isn't a changeling sort of

867
00:28:26,870 --> 00:28:23,360
analog is uh the ubiku which is this

868
00:28:30,230 --> 00:28:26,880
uh tradition of the yoruba who live

869
00:28:32,630 --> 00:28:30,240
in nigeria and benin in africa

870
00:28:34,950 --> 00:28:32,640
it's generally claimed that the ubiku

871
00:28:36,470 --> 00:28:34,960
are most active at sunrise or

872
00:28:37,590 --> 00:28:36,480
you know sunset the sort of liminal

873
00:28:39,510 --> 00:28:37,600
period that we were talking about

874
00:28:41,269 --> 00:28:39,520
neither daytime or night time

875
00:28:42,789 --> 00:28:41,279
and if you were a pregnant woman you

876
00:28:45,190 --> 00:28:42,799
should avoid

877
00:28:47,350 --> 00:28:45,200
certain spots that they might linger

878
00:28:50,789 --> 00:28:47,360
dung heaps jungles footpaths

879
00:28:52,310 --> 00:28:50,799
um and if you were a woman who was

880
00:28:54,470 --> 00:28:52,320
unfortunate enough to encounter this

881
00:28:55,750 --> 00:28:54,480
abiku this disembodied spirit it would

882
00:28:57,990 --> 00:28:55,760
actually

883
00:28:59,909 --> 00:28:58,000
find its way into your unborn child now

884
00:29:02,070 --> 00:28:59,919
before incarnating in this

885
00:29:04,230 --> 00:29:02,080
it's human form the abiku actually in

886
00:29:06,149 --> 00:29:04,240
yoruba mythology makes a pledge

887
00:29:08,149 --> 00:29:06,159
to live a shortened lifetime but during

888
00:29:08,630 --> 00:29:08,159
that time to sort of milk the parents

889
00:29:12,149 --> 00:29:08,640
out of

890
00:29:13,830 --> 00:29:12,159
all the all the worldly goods that they

891
00:29:15,909 --> 00:29:13,840
can because the idea of that it

892
00:29:17,110 --> 00:29:15,919
accumulating worldly goods and offerings

893
00:29:20,070 --> 00:29:17,120
in the real world

894
00:29:21,269 --> 00:29:20,080
will translate to uh sort of wealth in

895
00:29:23,430 --> 00:29:21,279
the spirit world

896
00:29:24,789 --> 00:29:23,440
so generally the way these uh these

897
00:29:28,149 --> 00:29:24,799
narratives go

898
00:29:31,190 --> 00:29:28,159
is that this child who isn't a child uh

899
00:29:33,990 --> 00:29:31,200
will present with a lot of the

900
00:29:34,470 --> 00:29:34,000
um similar sort of complaints that you'd

901
00:29:37,029 --> 00:29:34,480
find

902
00:29:37,990 --> 00:29:37,039
in changing lore of the british isles

903
00:29:41,269 --> 00:29:38,000
and

904
00:29:44,630 --> 00:29:41,279
the parents would take it to a bubba

905
00:29:46,470 --> 00:29:44,640
a fairy doctor for advice and eventually

906
00:29:48,149 --> 00:29:46,480
the parents would just see their child

907
00:29:49,110 --> 00:29:48,159
continuing to diminish and health and

908
00:29:51,269 --> 00:29:49,120
would start

909
00:29:53,029 --> 00:29:51,279
uh putting offerings on its feet saying

910
00:29:53,990 --> 00:29:53,039
you know oh you know if if you just

911
00:29:55,990 --> 00:29:54,000
release my child

912
00:29:57,430 --> 00:29:56,000
i'll i'll give you food i'll give you

913
00:29:58,549 --> 00:29:57,440
money i'll give you livestock i'll give

914
00:30:01,510 --> 00:29:58,559
you property

915
00:30:03,750 --> 00:30:01,520
and supposedly the idea is that at you

916
00:30:05,669 --> 00:30:03,760
know after the abiku dies or after the

917
00:30:07,510 --> 00:30:05,679
child dies the abiku spirit is released

918
00:30:10,310 --> 00:30:07,520
and it takes all that wealth

919
00:30:12,870 --> 00:30:10,320
with it um you know it's interesting uh

920
00:30:16,389 --> 00:30:12,880
one of the things that you find in

921
00:30:19,510 --> 00:30:16,399
as a sort of a preventative method um

922
00:30:20,389 --> 00:30:19,520
in the british isles is the presence of

923
00:30:22,230 --> 00:30:20,399
iron

924
00:30:23,830 --> 00:30:22,240
as a means of warding off both the

925
00:30:24,789 --> 00:30:23,840
supernatural in general but specifically

926
00:30:26,870 --> 00:30:24,799
fairies

927
00:30:28,230 --> 00:30:26,880
and it was seen that the abiku could

928
00:30:28,950 --> 00:30:28,240
also enter the bodies of newborn

929
00:30:31,990 --> 00:30:28,960
children so

930
00:30:33,830 --> 00:30:32,000
one good way to prevent uh these spirits

931
00:30:35,430 --> 00:30:33,840
from entering the child's body was to

932
00:30:38,389 --> 00:30:35,440
actually hang iron rings

933
00:30:39,269 --> 00:30:38,399
around the the children's uh ankles uh

934
00:30:41,110 --> 00:30:39,279
so it's

935
00:30:42,389 --> 00:30:41,120
again some of these these comparative

936
00:30:44,630 --> 00:30:42,399
things that

937
00:30:46,950 --> 00:30:44,640
are uh really startling when you sort of

938
00:30:48,830 --> 00:30:46,960
take a larger view to see how

939
00:30:50,549 --> 00:30:48,840
many of these traditions really have

940
00:30:52,389 --> 00:30:50,559
similar similar

941
00:30:54,070 --> 00:30:52,399
uh analogs even though these are

942
00:30:55,350 --> 00:30:54,080
cultures that should not have any real

943
00:30:57,750 --> 00:30:55,360
contact with each other

944
00:30:59,350 --> 00:30:57,760
again like i said the gin lore of the

945
00:31:00,070 --> 00:30:59,360
middle east is another favorite of mine

946
00:31:01,430 --> 00:31:00,080
but it's i mean

947
00:31:03,269 --> 00:31:01,440
i could tell you the stories but they're

948
00:31:05,750 --> 00:31:03,279
pretty much exactly like

949
00:31:07,750 --> 00:31:05,760
fairy lore i mean if you you know even

950
00:31:09,590 --> 00:31:07,760
you can even look at the way that

951
00:31:11,269 --> 00:31:09,600
both the gin and the fairies have are

952
00:31:12,789 --> 00:31:11,279
depicted in popular culture as sort of

953
00:31:14,389 --> 00:31:12,799
these friendly spirits

954
00:31:16,070 --> 00:31:14,399
it's it's an exact same path and they

955
00:31:17,830 --> 00:31:16,080
have a lot of the similar

956
00:31:19,430 --> 00:31:17,840
a lot of similar attributes among

957
00:31:21,750 --> 00:31:19,440
themselves

958
00:31:22,710 --> 00:31:21,760
and now these west african uh

959
00:31:24,470 --> 00:31:22,720
mythologies are

960
00:31:26,230 --> 00:31:24,480
they tied anywhere into the voodoo

961
00:31:30,149 --> 00:31:26,240
culture

962
00:31:31,909 --> 00:31:30,159
i from what i'm familiar with uh

963
00:31:34,149 --> 00:31:31,919
voodoo and i'm speaking a little bit

964
00:31:34,630 --> 00:31:34,159
outside of my my particular wheelhouse

965
00:31:37,350 --> 00:31:34,640
but i

966
00:31:37,750 --> 00:31:37,360
i should think that some of these yoruba

967
00:31:41,190 --> 00:31:37,760
uh

968
00:31:43,830 --> 00:31:41,200
their their way

969
00:31:45,509 --> 00:31:43,840
um into into the into that culture as

970
00:31:48,549 --> 00:31:45,519
well i mean so

971
00:31:50,710 --> 00:31:48,559
even if not just the yoruba the igbo of

972
00:31:52,630 --> 00:31:50,720
southern nigeria have an analogous

973
00:31:54,310 --> 00:31:52,640
entity as well that's very similar to

974
00:31:56,149 --> 00:31:54,320
the ubiku so i would it would not

975
00:31:59,110 --> 00:31:56,159
surprise me at all

976
00:32:00,870 --> 00:31:59,120
you know the reason i asked was um you

977
00:32:01,830 --> 00:32:00,880
know of course the the west african

978
00:32:04,870 --> 00:32:01,840
religion was

979
00:32:07,750 --> 00:32:04,880
was brought over with slaves into the uh

980
00:32:08,310 --> 00:32:07,760
you know to form the career religions in

981
00:32:11,430 --> 00:32:08,320
the

982
00:32:13,190 --> 00:32:11,440
caribbean and it does sound like some

983
00:32:16,389 --> 00:32:13,200
type of beliefs that

984
00:32:18,549 --> 00:32:16,399
are inherent in haitian voodoo

985
00:32:21,190 --> 00:32:18,559
and some of the other uh some of the

986
00:32:22,389 --> 00:32:21,200
other islands in the caribbean so i was

987
00:32:23,509 --> 00:32:22,399
just wondering if you found that

988
00:32:26,549 --> 00:32:23,519
correlation

989
00:32:29,909 --> 00:32:26,559
yeah i i i if i'm not mistaken there's a

990
00:32:32,070 --> 00:32:29,919
strong um there's a strong

991
00:32:33,990 --> 00:32:32,080
influence of yoruba religion both on

992
00:32:36,789 --> 00:32:34,000
haitian voodoo and new orleans who do

993
00:32:42,149 --> 00:32:39,909
so let's let's get to north america uh

994
00:32:45,029 --> 00:32:42,159
the first nations peoples

995
00:32:47,029 --> 00:32:45,039
and their beliefs on these abductions

996
00:32:48,549 --> 00:32:47,039
can you tell us a little bit about that

997
00:32:51,029 --> 00:32:48,559
it's really startling i was not

998
00:32:54,149 --> 00:32:51,039
expecting to find quite the same

999
00:32:55,750 --> 00:32:54,159
you know robust uh traditions

1000
00:32:57,029 --> 00:32:55,760
as i did in other parts of the world and

1001
00:32:58,630 --> 00:32:57,039
i certainly wasn't expecting to have

1002
00:33:01,669 --> 00:32:58,640
them really uh

1003
00:33:02,789 --> 00:33:01,679
wasn't expecting to have them line up as

1004
00:33:04,549 --> 00:33:02,799
well as they do with

1005
00:33:06,549 --> 00:33:04,559
other lore but i mean it's actually one

1006
00:33:08,149 --> 00:33:06,559
of the most one of the larger sections

1007
00:33:09,350 --> 00:33:08,159
in that chapter on on

1008
00:33:10,950 --> 00:33:09,360
fairy traditions and changeling

1009
00:33:12,710 --> 00:33:10,960
traditions and child abduction around

1010
00:33:13,750 --> 00:33:12,720
the world is the sort of native american

1011
00:33:15,190 --> 00:33:13,760
component

1012
00:33:17,029 --> 00:33:15,200
um one of the one of the ones that i

1013
00:33:17,430 --> 00:33:17,039
found most interesting uh because this

1014
00:33:22,950 --> 00:33:17,440
is

1015
00:33:24,950 --> 00:33:22,960
uh that i was most familiar with growing

1016
00:33:27,990 --> 00:33:24,960
up in the in uh

1017
00:33:28,950 --> 00:33:28,000
in uh central in central western north

1018
00:33:31,269 --> 00:33:28,960
carolina

1019
00:33:33,029 --> 00:33:31,279
um are the catawba indians and their

1020
00:33:35,110 --> 00:33:33,039
belief in the in the yeah

1021
00:33:36,389 --> 00:33:35,120
which are what they what they refer to

1022
00:33:38,789 --> 00:33:36,399
as wild indians

1023
00:33:40,389 --> 00:33:38,799
um and if you look at sort of their

1024
00:33:41,509 --> 00:33:40,399
attributes they're generally considered

1025
00:33:44,070 --> 00:33:41,519
to live underground

1026
00:33:44,950 --> 00:33:44,080
be short eat rubbish which we talked

1027
00:33:47,990 --> 00:33:44,960
about

1028
00:33:49,830 --> 00:33:48,000
braid horses mains which you'll find in

1029
00:33:51,350 --> 00:33:49,840
fairy lore especially in france but

1030
00:33:53,269 --> 00:33:51,360
interestingly enough you'll also find

1031
00:33:55,430 --> 00:33:53,279
people blaming bigfoot for that

1032
00:33:56,870 --> 00:33:55,440
as a as i'm sure you're aware and uh

1033
00:33:59,190 --> 00:33:56,880
also they love to take

1034
00:34:00,870 --> 00:33:59,200
children away right and uh there are

1035
00:34:03,830 --> 00:34:00,880
certain stories of

1036
00:34:05,269 --> 00:34:03,840
uh children who were taken away or who

1037
00:34:06,710 --> 00:34:05,279
had these interactions and they were

1038
00:34:09,829 --> 00:34:06,720
brought back and they would actually

1039
00:34:12,069 --> 00:34:09,839
gain special abilities uh to be

1040
00:34:13,510 --> 00:34:12,079
healers which is something that i think

1041
00:34:14,710 --> 00:34:13,520
is really important that i think gets

1042
00:34:17,829 --> 00:34:14,720
overlooked so much

1043
00:34:21,270 --> 00:34:17,839
is that if you look at the same things

1044
00:34:24,470 --> 00:34:21,280
can be said for

1045
00:34:28,790 --> 00:34:24,480
for medicine men slash shamans in

1046
00:34:31,190 --> 00:34:28,800
indigenous cultures it can be said uh

1047
00:34:33,109 --> 00:34:31,200
alien experiencers it can be said for

1048
00:34:35,669 --> 00:34:33,119
people who return from fairyland and it

1049
00:34:38,629 --> 00:34:35,679
can be said for near-death experiencers

1050
00:34:40,149 --> 00:34:38,639
they all return generally speaking many

1051
00:34:41,750 --> 00:34:40,159
of them return with some sort of

1052
00:34:44,790 --> 00:34:41,760
heightened liability and

1053
00:34:46,629 --> 00:34:44,800
a renewed spiritual interest and

1054
00:34:48,230 --> 00:34:46,639
renewed abilities you'll find this time

1055
00:34:50,069 --> 00:34:48,240
and time again

1056
00:34:52,069 --> 00:34:50,079
and it doesn't it doesn't get as much

1057
00:34:53,669 --> 00:34:52,079
attention as i think it really should in

1058
00:34:55,510 --> 00:34:53,679
the modern paranormal dialogue

1059
00:34:56,790 --> 00:34:55,520
but it's it's it's definitely a data

1060
00:35:00,790 --> 00:34:56,800
point that i think is

1061
00:35:03,109 --> 00:35:00,800
uh is important well you know

1062
00:35:05,910 --> 00:35:03,119
part of my family is from western north

1063
00:35:08,630 --> 00:35:05,920
carolina and um

1064
00:35:10,310 --> 00:35:08,640
they they used to talk about child

1065
00:35:13,349 --> 00:35:10,320
abductions

1066
00:35:15,030 --> 00:35:13,359
by the wild men were basically

1067
00:35:17,030 --> 00:35:15,040
they were describing sasquatch or

1068
00:35:20,550 --> 00:35:17,040
bigfoot boogers right

1069
00:35:23,670 --> 00:35:20,560
yeah and that you know those um

1070
00:35:25,349 --> 00:35:23,680
you know those stories you know

1071
00:35:26,950 --> 00:35:25,359
i don't know how far back they go i'm

1072
00:35:30,069 --> 00:35:26,960
quite sure they go back

1073
00:35:33,270 --> 00:35:30,079
to the cherokee and other uh indigenous

1074
00:35:35,829 --> 00:35:33,280
tribes in that in that region uh

1075
00:35:37,109 --> 00:35:35,839
but there is quite a tradition of

1076
00:35:39,910 --> 00:35:37,119
children

1077
00:35:40,630 --> 00:35:39,920
said to have been abducted by these uh

1078
00:35:44,069 --> 00:35:40,640
like you call

1079
00:35:46,870 --> 00:35:44,079
boogers or the what we call now bigfoot

1080
00:35:48,230 --> 00:35:46,880
and um you know i'm just wondering how

1081
00:35:51,349 --> 00:35:48,240
much that has to tie

1082
00:35:54,470 --> 00:35:51,359
in uh with the uh

1083
00:35:58,470 --> 00:35:54,480
david pilates uh uh

1084
00:36:00,790 --> 00:35:58,480
in his 4-1-1 uh encounters

1085
00:36:03,270 --> 00:36:00,800
in his books and you know in particular

1086
00:36:05,430 --> 00:36:03,280
he talks about the national parks

1087
00:36:06,550 --> 00:36:05,440
but you know this is something that i i

1088
00:36:08,550 --> 00:36:06,560
believe is

1089
00:36:12,870 --> 00:36:08,560
is kind of going on everywhere where

1090
00:36:16,069 --> 00:36:12,880
this activity goes on

1091
00:36:17,589 --> 00:36:16,079
yes i so i i think part of the reason

1092
00:36:19,270 --> 00:36:17,599
that i was inspired to write this book

1093
00:36:23,030 --> 00:36:19,280
too was to sort of highlight

1094
00:36:24,550 --> 00:36:23,040
how much fairy lore really informs a lot

1095
00:36:26,069 --> 00:36:24,560
of these concepts i mean even

1096
00:36:28,150 --> 00:36:26,079
the term booger which i mentioned in the

1097
00:36:29,430 --> 00:36:28,160
book booger derives from boogie man

1098
00:36:31,190 --> 00:36:29,440
which derives from

1099
00:36:33,030 --> 00:36:31,200
boggert which is a type of fairy that

1100
00:36:35,109 --> 00:36:33,040
steals children like you'll find

1101
00:36:37,910 --> 00:36:35,119
a lot of these uh these similar motifs

1102
00:36:39,670 --> 00:36:37,920
really repeating themselves and it's not

1103
00:36:42,950 --> 00:36:39,680
look lon i want this i want bigfoot to

1104
00:36:44,550 --> 00:36:42,960
be flesh and blood so bad

1105
00:36:46,630 --> 00:36:44,560
but the similarities between a lot of

1106
00:36:49,349 --> 00:36:46,640
the sasquatch lore that you hear and

1107
00:36:49,990 --> 00:36:49,359
and fairy lore is is startling you know

1108
00:36:51,829 --> 00:36:50,000
um

1109
00:36:53,750 --> 00:36:51,839
the their ability to paralyze people

1110
00:36:55,190 --> 00:36:53,760
just like you know elf shot

1111
00:36:56,550 --> 00:36:55,200
might have in the british isles the

1112
00:36:58,390 --> 00:36:56,560
braiding of horses that i mentioned the

1113
00:36:59,670 --> 00:36:58,400
suckling of milk the stealing of milk

1114
00:37:01,589 --> 00:36:59,680
from cattle

1115
00:37:02,870 --> 00:37:01,599
um certain associations with the dead in

1116
00:37:05,270 --> 00:37:02,880
some cultures

1117
00:37:06,870 --> 00:37:05,280
um you know a lot of these are really

1118
00:37:08,950 --> 00:37:06,880
really um

1119
00:37:10,630 --> 00:37:08,960
are really interesting connections i

1120
00:37:12,390 --> 00:37:10,640
don't know if that means that there is

1121
00:37:13,670 --> 00:37:12,400
some sort of sasquatch fairy connection

1122
00:37:16,069 --> 00:37:13,680
but i think there are things that

1123
00:37:17,750 --> 00:37:16,079
that are deserving of deserving of our

1124
00:37:19,990 --> 00:37:17,760
attention and similarly you know

1125
00:37:21,270 --> 00:37:20,000
this this sort of uh sanitization that

1126
00:37:23,990 --> 00:37:21,280
you find of fairy lore

1127
00:37:24,870 --> 00:37:24,000
in the modern uh in the modern sort of

1128
00:37:26,069 --> 00:37:24,880
pop culture

1129
00:37:28,230 --> 00:37:26,079
is one of the reasons that i think

1130
00:37:31,430 --> 00:37:28,240
people haven't been uh

1131
00:37:32,630 --> 00:37:31,440
considering it as a method or a means

1132
00:37:34,230 --> 00:37:32,640
rather to

1133
00:37:36,790 --> 00:37:34,240
explain at least some of these missing

1134
00:37:38,230 --> 00:37:36,800
4-1-1 disappearances um

1135
00:37:40,470 --> 00:37:38,240
one of the things that you'll find that

1136
00:37:41,510 --> 00:37:40,480
that is so i mean so i've said this

1137
00:37:41,910 --> 00:37:41,520
before but i think it's worth saying

1138
00:37:44,069 --> 00:37:41,920
again

1139
00:37:45,750 --> 00:37:44,079
missing 4-1-1 is a paranormal rorschach

1140
00:37:48,150 --> 00:37:45,760
test whatever you're into

1141
00:37:49,829 --> 00:37:48,160
is what you're going to see now honestly

1142
00:37:52,150 --> 00:37:49,839
i see the irony in me being into fairy

1143
00:37:55,510 --> 00:37:52,160
lore and seeing fairies but hear me out

1144
00:37:56,710 --> 00:37:55,520
um you know some of these data points

1145
00:37:58,870 --> 00:37:56,720
that don't seem to make

1146
00:38:00,710 --> 00:37:58,880
as much sense like oh the idea that you

1147
00:38:03,190 --> 00:38:00,720
know what's alien abduction because

1148
00:38:05,109 --> 00:38:03,200
aliens will abduct you well then why do

1149
00:38:07,030 --> 00:38:05,119
so many disappearances

1150
00:38:08,150 --> 00:38:07,040
have these weird weather effects why do

1151
00:38:09,990 --> 00:38:08,160
they take place near

1152
00:38:11,349 --> 00:38:10,000
uh boulder fields why do they take place

1153
00:38:14,550 --> 00:38:11,359
while berry picking

1154
00:38:15,270 --> 00:38:14,560
but in the british and irish and

1155
00:38:17,670 --> 00:38:15,280
scottish

1156
00:38:19,109 --> 00:38:17,680
fairy lore in particular you'll find

1157
00:38:20,310 --> 00:38:19,119
other ideas around the world

1158
00:38:22,550 --> 00:38:20,320
these are all things that are

1159
00:38:23,190 --> 00:38:22,560
incorporated into into fairy belief the

1160
00:38:24,630 --> 00:38:23,200
idea that

1161
00:38:26,470 --> 00:38:24,640
i mean there's there's a there's a book

1162
00:38:27,349 --> 00:38:26,480
on my shelf that has an entire essay

1163
00:38:30,550 --> 00:38:27,359
dedicated

1164
00:38:32,950 --> 00:38:30,560
to stories of children who uh

1165
00:38:34,390 --> 00:38:32,960
go berry picking in newfoundland where

1166
00:38:34,870 --> 00:38:34,400
there was a strong fairy belief and

1167
00:38:37,750 --> 00:38:34,880
either

1168
00:38:38,950 --> 00:38:37,760
saw fairies at the berry bush were

1169
00:38:40,630 --> 00:38:38,960
attempted to be kidnapped

1170
00:38:42,310 --> 00:38:40,640
were kidnapped and came back or came

1171
00:38:44,390 --> 00:38:42,320
back in a daze which are all things that

1172
00:38:46,150 --> 00:38:44,400
are missing 4-1-1 motif similarly

1173
00:38:47,990 --> 00:38:46,160
in iceland and other places in

1174
00:38:49,190 --> 00:38:48,000
scandinavia boulder fields were the

1175
00:38:51,910 --> 00:38:49,200
homes of fairies in

1176
00:38:52,550 --> 00:38:51,920
a lot of these traditions from i mean

1177
00:38:55,829 --> 00:38:52,560
the

1178
00:38:59,190 --> 00:38:55,839
cultures

1179
00:38:59,990 --> 00:38:59,200
to the british isles fairies traveled on

1180
00:39:02,550 --> 00:39:00,000
storms they

1181
00:39:04,310 --> 00:39:02,560
traveled on whirlwinds and this when you

1182
00:39:05,349 --> 00:39:04,320
combine all this with the propensity of

1183
00:39:06,870 --> 00:39:05,359
these beings and a lot of these

1184
00:39:08,230 --> 00:39:06,880
different cultures to steal people it's

1185
00:39:10,310 --> 00:39:08,240
it's an explanation as

1186
00:39:11,430 --> 00:39:10,320
out there as it sort of sounds here's

1187
00:39:14,950 --> 00:39:11,440
the thing

1188
00:39:22,950 --> 00:39:14,960
i don't know what

1189
00:39:24,790 --> 00:39:22,960
missing 4-1-1 but setting aside

1190
00:39:26,390 --> 00:39:24,800
i think they're the same thing i don't

1191
00:39:27,589 --> 00:39:26,400
know that does this mean

1192
00:39:29,190 --> 00:39:27,599
is josh saying that fairies are

1193
00:39:30,069 --> 00:39:29,200
abducting people no i'm not i'm just

1194
00:39:31,670 --> 00:39:30,079
saying that

1195
00:39:33,750 --> 00:39:31,680
this was their way of describing the

1196
00:39:35,510 --> 00:39:33,760
missing 4-1-1 phenomena and our missing

1197
00:39:36,390 --> 00:39:35,520
4-1-1 phenomena is is our way of

1198
00:39:38,790 --> 00:39:36,400
describing

1199
00:39:40,150 --> 00:39:38,800
the way that people would go missing in

1200
00:39:41,990 --> 00:39:40,160
in fairyland and you can just go down

1201
00:39:43,349 --> 00:39:42,000
the list i mean there's a really i sort

1202
00:39:45,589 --> 00:39:43,359
of try to delineate this in the book a

1203
00:39:47,589 --> 00:39:45,599
lot of platys data points you can find

1204
00:39:48,630 --> 00:39:47,599
a one-to-one correlation with and some

1205
00:39:53,190 --> 00:39:48,640
sort of fairy lure

1206
00:39:54,790 --> 00:39:53,200
uh in in the world yeah you know um

1207
00:39:57,589 --> 00:39:54,800
now we you mean you're talking about

1208
00:40:00,790 --> 00:39:57,599
bigfoot or sasquatch

1209
00:40:02,710 --> 00:40:00,800
being flesh and blood well you know

1210
00:40:04,230 --> 00:40:02,720
i i don't buy into that for the most

1211
00:40:05,829 --> 00:40:04,240
part either you're speak

1212
00:40:09,109 --> 00:40:05,839
you're actually preaching to the choir

1213
00:40:11,430 --> 00:40:09,119
when you talk about some type of uh

1214
00:40:12,390 --> 00:40:11,440
either interdimensional or supernatural

1215
00:40:15,750 --> 00:40:12,400
aspect of these

1216
00:40:18,150 --> 00:40:15,760
cryptids um i mean there are just too

1217
00:40:21,190 --> 00:40:18,160
many instances that are just too weird

1218
00:40:23,030 --> 00:40:21,200
i mean unexplainable uh people

1219
00:40:24,630 --> 00:40:23,040
following and they just disappear into

1220
00:40:27,349 --> 00:40:24,640
nowhere or uh

1221
00:40:29,030 --> 00:40:27,359
you know possibility of them being

1222
00:40:30,710 --> 00:40:29,040
abducted you know and i know david

1223
00:40:32,390 --> 00:40:30,720
pelayus doesn't like talking about it

1224
00:40:34,069 --> 00:40:32,400
because he and i have had arguments

1225
00:40:36,069 --> 00:40:34,079
about this before too

1226
00:40:39,030 --> 00:40:36,079
but you know i think some of these cases

1227
00:40:40,950 --> 00:40:39,040
are actually abductions by

1228
00:40:42,390 --> 00:40:40,960
bigfooter sasquatch but he doesn't like

1229
00:40:44,710 --> 00:40:42,400
to get into that well

1230
00:40:45,430 --> 00:40:44,720
yeah i i have a problem with so okay

1231
00:40:47,510 --> 00:40:45,440
look um

1232
00:40:48,790 --> 00:40:47,520
first and foremost my heart is is is in

1233
00:40:51,030 --> 00:40:48,800
cryptozoology and

1234
00:40:52,550 --> 00:40:51,040
the and the objective realism objective

1235
00:40:53,430 --> 00:40:52,560
reality of bigfoot as a flesh and blood

1236
00:40:55,109 --> 00:40:53,440
creature

1237
00:40:56,470 --> 00:40:55,119
uh because i really want that to really

1238
00:40:58,150 --> 00:40:56,480
want that to be the case but

1239
00:40:59,829 --> 00:40:58,160
i have a problem with certain

1240
00:41:02,230 --> 00:40:59,839
researchers out there who

1241
00:41:03,349 --> 00:41:02,240
will listen to you all day long about

1242
00:41:05,510 --> 00:41:03,359
you know

1243
00:41:07,430 --> 00:41:05,520
interacting with sasquatch and will say

1244
00:41:08,870 --> 00:41:07,440
well these are the not crazy people but

1245
00:41:09,910 --> 00:41:08,880
as soon as you bring in anything a

1246
00:41:11,430 --> 00:41:09,920
little bit weird

1247
00:41:12,870 --> 00:41:11,440
well then you're one of the crazies well

1248
00:41:14,390 --> 00:41:12,880
you know we all live in glass houses

1249
00:41:16,230 --> 00:41:14,400
here i mean

1250
00:41:17,349 --> 00:41:16,240
you know and i and i have i think

1251
00:41:18,950 --> 00:41:17,359
there's a real sort of intellectual

1252
00:41:22,230 --> 00:41:18,960
dishonesty to sort of

1253
00:41:25,270 --> 00:41:22,240
i mean obviously some things will push

1254
00:41:28,390 --> 00:41:25,280
your suspension of disbelief too far but

1255
00:41:29,030 --> 00:41:28,400
if somebody says that they you know they

1256
00:41:31,670 --> 00:41:29,040
saw

1257
00:41:33,750 --> 00:41:31,680
anomalous lights in the woods just prior

1258
00:41:35,349 --> 00:41:33,760
to or after their sighting of sasquatch

1259
00:41:37,190 --> 00:41:35,359
that's a data point i'm sorry you've got

1260
00:41:38,550 --> 00:41:37,200
to hold on to that if you think they're

1261
00:41:40,309 --> 00:41:38,560
if you would think their story isn't

1262
00:41:42,309 --> 00:41:40,319
crazy without that one anomalous

1263
00:41:43,430 --> 00:41:42,319
data point you you've got you've got to

1264
00:41:45,349 --> 00:41:43,440
bring it in and you've got you know

1265
00:41:48,470 --> 00:41:45,359
that's an interesting point because i

1266
00:41:51,829 --> 00:41:48,480
i have had more more researchers

1267
00:41:53,030 --> 00:41:51,839
who i've known for years who completely

1268
00:41:56,069 --> 00:41:53,040
discounted

1269
00:41:58,470 --> 00:41:56,079
the supernatural aspect to bigfoot

1270
00:42:00,950 --> 00:41:58,480
starting to see these lights before and

1271
00:42:02,550 --> 00:42:00,960
after bigfoot encounters

1272
00:42:05,349 --> 00:42:02,560
you know i think that this is sort of

1273
00:42:06,950 --> 00:42:05,359
part of a larger cultural trend

1274
00:42:08,870 --> 00:42:06,960
um and here we go off the rails but i

1275
00:42:12,150 --> 00:42:08,880
love it um you know

1276
00:42:15,910 --> 00:42:12,160
uh the ufo community is moving

1277
00:42:17,910 --> 00:42:15,920
in a general way away from these strict

1278
00:42:18,870 --> 00:42:17,920
extraterrestrial hypothesis that you

1279
00:42:20,230 --> 00:42:18,880
really saw

1280
00:42:21,670 --> 00:42:20,240
see had seen dominate the field for the

1281
00:42:23,270 --> 00:42:21,680
past a couple of decades even in the

1282
00:42:24,950 --> 00:42:23,280
time that i've been really involved

1283
00:42:26,470 --> 00:42:24,960
writing books i've seen it move

1284
00:42:28,309 --> 00:42:26,480
a little bit more away from that you

1285
00:42:31,109 --> 00:42:28,319
know you've got people you've got people

1286
00:42:33,030 --> 00:42:31,119
who were sort of hardcore nuts and bolts

1287
00:42:35,030 --> 00:42:33,040
uh sort of researchers like richard

1288
00:42:36,950 --> 00:42:35,040
dolan who are entertaining ideas about

1289
00:42:37,589 --> 00:42:36,960
psy phenomena and consciousness and all

1290
00:42:39,670 --> 00:42:37,599
these really

1291
00:42:40,790 --> 00:42:39,680
interesting and exciting things and i

1292
00:42:41,510 --> 00:42:40,800
think you're sort of seeing a little bit

1293
00:42:43,349 --> 00:42:41,520
of a parallel

1294
00:42:44,790 --> 00:42:43,359
of that i hope in the bigfoot community

1295
00:42:45,670 --> 00:42:44,800
for the longest time i've said that you

1296
00:42:47,589 --> 00:42:45,680
know

1297
00:42:48,790 --> 00:42:47,599
cryptozoology again love love

1298
00:42:50,230 --> 00:42:48,800
cryptozoology as i do

1299
00:42:51,990 --> 00:42:50,240
they're sort of the last people who are

1300
00:42:53,750 --> 00:42:52,000
going to get on get on this you know

1301
00:42:55,829 --> 00:42:53,760
consciousness bandwagon that everybody's

1302
00:42:56,870 --> 00:42:55,839
hopping on to but i see that changing a

1303
00:42:58,710 --> 00:42:56,880
little bit and i

1304
00:43:01,030 --> 00:42:58,720
there are certain researchers like

1305
00:43:02,710 --> 00:43:01,040
yourself like our friend tim renner who

1306
00:43:04,950 --> 00:43:02,720
i think are really on the bleeding edge

1307
00:43:06,230 --> 00:43:04,960
of talking about these weirder things

1308
00:43:07,430 --> 00:43:06,240
because they're data points and they

1309
00:43:09,349 --> 00:43:07,440
have to be addressed even if they're

1310
00:43:10,390 --> 00:43:09,359
completely separate things

1311
00:43:12,390 --> 00:43:10,400
you know you've got to look at the

1312
00:43:13,910 --> 00:43:12,400
company that these things keep and if

1313
00:43:15,990 --> 00:43:13,920
you have these weird phenomena all

1314
00:43:19,349 --> 00:43:16,000
manifesting in some area it implies

1315
00:43:20,710 --> 00:43:19,359
some sort of uh some sort of other thing

1316
00:43:22,470 --> 00:43:20,720
that's drawing them there if they're not

1317
00:43:24,069 --> 00:43:22,480
all the same thing

1318
00:43:26,309 --> 00:43:24,079
well you know when you talk to people

1319
00:43:30,470 --> 00:43:26,319
every day about this kind of stuff

1320
00:43:32,870 --> 00:43:30,480
and they're looking to you for answers

1321
00:43:35,270 --> 00:43:32,880
and you know you gotta start thinking

1322
00:43:38,230 --> 00:43:35,280
that there's something else going on

1323
00:43:40,710 --> 00:43:38,240
you know of course i had i had a

1324
00:43:42,390 --> 00:43:40,720
encounter with a bigfoot back in 81

1325
00:43:43,990 --> 00:43:42,400
which are completely flesh and blood to

1326
00:43:45,349 --> 00:43:44,000
me and uh

1327
00:43:47,750 --> 00:43:45,359
you know but i'm not discounting the

1328
00:43:48,950 --> 00:43:47,760
fact that they ve this very well may be

1329
00:43:51,109 --> 00:43:48,960
a a

1330
00:43:52,950 --> 00:43:51,119
a supernatural phenomenon as well i mean

1331
00:43:54,470 --> 00:43:52,960
i i don't argue

1332
00:43:56,150 --> 00:43:54,480
that there i don't argue that there

1333
00:43:57,990 --> 00:43:56,160
aren't any flesh and blood because i

1334
00:44:00,630 --> 00:43:58,000
think there are in certain locations

1335
00:44:01,829 --> 00:44:00,640
certain areas exactly also i also

1336
00:44:05,030 --> 00:44:01,839
believe

1337
00:44:07,349 --> 00:44:05,040
the theory that you know

1338
00:44:08,150 --> 00:44:07,359
the supernatural and the paranormal is

1339
00:44:12,630 --> 00:44:08,160
tied together

1340
00:44:16,470 --> 00:44:12,640
somehow in other words ufos cryptids

1341
00:44:20,230 --> 00:44:16,480
uh spiritual world

1342
00:44:23,670 --> 00:44:20,240
etc i i think there's a tie in somewhere

1343
00:44:26,870 --> 00:44:23,680
there's just too many things that go on

1344
00:44:28,150 --> 00:44:26,880
that came i mean it's hard to explain

1345
00:44:32,230 --> 00:44:28,160
otherwise

1346
00:44:34,309 --> 00:44:32,240
well and i think the problem is are

1347
00:44:35,510 --> 00:44:34,319
it's especially pronounced in in the in

1348
00:44:37,589 --> 00:44:35,520
these fields of study

1349
00:44:38,870 --> 00:44:37,599
of you know fortiana nowadays it

1350
00:44:39,349 --> 00:44:38,880
shouldn't be because this is exactly

1351
00:44:42,230 --> 00:44:39,359
where i think

1352
00:44:43,349 --> 00:44:42,240
fort would have railed against but um we

1353
00:44:45,109 --> 00:44:43,359
all want to set up

1354
00:44:46,550 --> 00:44:45,119
these dichotomies in anything that we do

1355
00:44:47,910 --> 00:44:46,560
it's all one thing or all the other

1356
00:44:49,510 --> 00:44:47,920
thing and i think with a lot of this

1357
00:44:52,069 --> 00:44:49,520
stuff you can't say that i mean you know

1358
00:44:53,510 --> 00:44:52,079
are some ufos or another products craft

1359
00:44:55,270 --> 00:44:53,520
probably a lot of them

1360
00:44:56,790 --> 00:44:55,280
um you know gov secret government

1361
00:44:57,589 --> 00:44:56,800
projects probably a lot of them are some

1362
00:44:59,510 --> 00:44:57,599
of them

1363
00:45:00,790 --> 00:44:59,520
misidentification probably even more of

1364
00:45:02,309 --> 00:45:00,800
them are some of them

1365
00:45:04,150 --> 00:45:02,319
are some of them genuine

1366
00:45:05,750 --> 00:45:04,160
extraterrestrial visitation

1367
00:45:07,910 --> 00:45:05,760
yeah i would say probably yeah i would

1368
00:45:09,829 --> 00:45:07,920
also say that some of them are

1369
00:45:11,430 --> 00:45:09,839
some sort of side phenomena some of them

1370
00:45:12,470 --> 00:45:11,440
might have this sort of association with

1371
00:45:13,910 --> 00:45:12,480
the spirit world

1372
00:45:15,990 --> 00:45:13,920
um but people don't want to sit with

1373
00:45:17,589 --> 00:45:16,000
that sort of ambiguity

1374
00:45:18,790 --> 00:45:17,599
um and the thing that i think i might

1375
00:45:19,910 --> 00:45:18,800
have mentioned this last time but i i

1376
00:45:21,030 --> 00:45:19,920
really like it because it sort of

1377
00:45:23,510 --> 00:45:21,040
explains where i sit with

1378
00:45:24,870 --> 00:45:23,520
with with sasquatch is that uh if you're

1379
00:45:25,589 --> 00:45:24,880
familiar with you know mike clelland's

1380
00:45:27,910 --> 00:45:25,599
work

1381
00:45:28,630 --> 00:45:27,920
uh there are owls and then there are

1382
00:45:30,550 --> 00:45:28,640
owls

1383
00:45:32,069 --> 00:45:30,560
so this idea that abductees will see

1384
00:45:33,750 --> 00:45:32,079
owls that are flesh and blood owls and

1385
00:45:35,270 --> 00:45:33,760
it'll just be this sort of weird coin

1386
00:45:36,790 --> 00:45:35,280
this sort of weird synchronicity we've

1387
00:45:37,750 --> 00:45:36,800
caught owls we know that owls are

1388
00:45:39,589 --> 00:45:37,760
actually animals

1389
00:45:41,589 --> 00:45:39,599
but sometimes they'll see owls that

1390
00:45:43,670 --> 00:45:41,599
behave in a way that they should not

1391
00:45:45,430 --> 00:45:43,680
or owls that look like owls but are way

1392
00:45:46,630 --> 00:45:45,440
too big and i think maybe we're seeing

1393
00:45:48,870 --> 00:45:46,640
something with sasquatch

1394
00:45:50,870 --> 00:45:48,880
i'm completely open to the idea that

1395
00:45:52,150 --> 00:45:50,880
there's a population of undiscovered

1396
00:45:55,510 --> 00:45:52,160
primate but sometimes

1397
00:45:57,349 --> 00:45:55,520
whatever this other thing is it says to

1398
00:45:59,190 --> 00:45:57,359
itself that's kind of a good mask to

1399
00:46:00,870 --> 00:45:59,200
wear let's put that on for a while

1400
00:46:02,630 --> 00:46:00,880
that's the only that that's that's the

1401
00:46:03,430 --> 00:46:02,640
way that i have it reconciled in my head

1402
00:46:04,870 --> 00:46:03,440
now i hope i don't

1403
00:46:06,230 --> 00:46:04,880
hold on to that belief for too long

1404
00:46:08,309 --> 00:46:06,240
because i think that when you sort of

1405
00:46:11,589 --> 00:46:08,319
get ossified in your beliefs

1406
00:46:12,950 --> 00:46:11,599
um that's that's always uh uh the sign

1407
00:46:13,990 --> 00:46:12,960
that you're not moving forward so

1408
00:46:16,309 --> 00:46:14,000
hopefully

1409
00:46:17,990 --> 00:46:16,319
but that's sort of where i sit with that

1410
00:46:20,069 --> 00:46:18,000
concept right now

1411
00:46:22,230 --> 00:46:20,079
well you know i i've gone through this

1412
00:46:24,150 --> 00:46:22,240
al phenomena myself

1413
00:46:25,270 --> 00:46:24,160
and uh in fact i've got mike clinton

1414
00:46:27,030 --> 00:46:25,280
coming on the show

1415
00:46:28,309 --> 00:46:27,040
in in several weeks from now and we're

1416
00:46:29,270 --> 00:46:28,319
going to definitely be talking about

1417
00:46:32,309 --> 00:46:29,280
that

1418
00:46:34,790 --> 00:46:32,319
and um you know i

1419
00:46:36,470 --> 00:46:34,800
i can't explain it myself it was a

1420
00:46:38,390 --> 00:46:36,480
period of time there

1421
00:46:40,870 --> 00:46:38,400
uh for about a year and a half where i

1422
00:46:41,829 --> 00:46:40,880
was just seeing all references to owls

1423
00:46:44,470 --> 00:46:41,839
seeing owls

1424
00:46:45,349 --> 00:46:44,480
all kinds of different hour related

1425
00:46:47,510 --> 00:46:45,359
phenomena

1426
00:46:48,390 --> 00:46:47,520
and uh i couldn't explain it it was

1427
00:46:51,190 --> 00:46:48,400
interesting because

1428
00:46:52,710 --> 00:46:51,200
at the time or right after that i had

1429
00:46:55,589 --> 00:46:52,720
gotten the chance to talk to mike and

1430
00:46:58,790 --> 00:46:55,599
yeah i talked about this extensively

1431
00:47:01,430 --> 00:46:58,800
and it's an interesting it's interesting

1432
00:47:02,470 --> 00:47:01,440
it kind of gets into the in as far as

1433
00:47:04,710 --> 00:47:02,480
i'm concerned

1434
00:47:06,870 --> 00:47:04,720
the possibility of tulpa thought form

1435
00:47:08,550 --> 00:47:06,880
type manifestation

1436
00:47:10,069 --> 00:47:08,560
is that what's going on with bigfoot and

1437
00:47:12,630 --> 00:47:10,079
other cryptids that very well may

1438
00:47:14,550 --> 00:47:12,640
be yeah completely open to that idea and

1439
00:47:16,309 --> 00:47:14,560
i think i specifically remember

1440
00:47:18,550 --> 00:47:16,319
um that conversation that you had with

1441
00:47:19,510 --> 00:47:18,560
mike and if if memory serves was that

1442
00:47:21,990 --> 00:47:19,520
around the time that your

1443
00:47:23,109 --> 00:47:22,000
wife passed is that yes about that time

1444
00:47:24,230 --> 00:47:23,119
and that's you know that's something

1445
00:47:25,670 --> 00:47:24,240
that that

1446
00:47:27,349 --> 00:47:25,680
you'll find in a lot of these cultures

1447
00:47:29,990 --> 00:47:27,359
is that association of

1448
00:47:31,910 --> 00:47:30,000
sort of being uh uh the always being at

1449
00:47:33,030 --> 00:47:31,920
least at the very least a symbol between

1450
00:47:35,190 --> 00:47:33,040
our world and the other world i think

1451
00:47:37,349 --> 00:47:35,200
that's really really interesting timing

1452
00:47:39,109 --> 00:47:37,359
um yeah i remember that it was such it

1453
00:47:40,470 --> 00:47:39,119
was such a moving and poignant moment

1454
00:47:42,069 --> 00:47:40,480
that i can actually tell you exactly

1455
00:47:44,870 --> 00:47:42,079
where i was in my day and where i was

1456
00:47:46,630 --> 00:47:44,880
going when i heard that yeah

1457
00:47:47,990 --> 00:47:46,640
yeah it was it was something that was

1458
00:47:49,910 --> 00:47:48,000
completely

1459
00:47:52,470 --> 00:47:49,920
new to me because it was interesting

1460
00:47:55,270 --> 00:47:52,480
because i had talked to the butchowski

1461
00:47:56,790 --> 00:47:55,280
my associate about this at the time and

1462
00:47:58,790 --> 00:47:56,800
i kept telling you know butch

1463
00:48:00,549 --> 00:47:58,800
i keep seeing these owls i keep seeing

1464
00:48:02,630 --> 00:48:00,559
this thing about owls or

1465
00:48:04,390 --> 00:48:02,640
reading about house or something about

1466
00:48:06,309 --> 00:48:04,400
an hour always comes up

1467
00:48:08,549 --> 00:48:06,319
and i didn't understand what it was you

1468
00:48:12,150 --> 00:48:08,559
know i talked to um

1469
00:48:14,630 --> 00:48:12,160
i talked to uh uh leonard dan

1470
00:48:15,670 --> 00:48:14,640
who's uh he was a shot well he's he's a

1471
00:48:17,829 --> 00:48:15,680
an elder

1472
00:48:19,670 --> 00:48:17,839
a navajo elder and he told talk to me

1473
00:48:23,270 --> 00:48:19,680
about the

1474
00:48:23,990 --> 00:48:23,280
about how owls were seen as important to

1475
00:48:26,710 --> 00:48:24,000
uh

1476
00:48:29,270 --> 00:48:26,720
you know bad tidings basically in in the

1477
00:48:31,430 --> 00:48:29,280
navajo tradition but then you know

1478
00:48:32,790 --> 00:48:31,440
uh then later on i got to talk to mike

1479
00:48:35,829 --> 00:48:32,800
and you know it kind of made a lot of

1480
00:48:38,870 --> 00:48:35,839
sense that these may be some type of

1481
00:48:39,829 --> 00:48:38,880
messengers of some type uh that are

1482
00:48:42,069 --> 00:48:39,839
telling us

1483
00:48:43,030 --> 00:48:42,079
not just bad things but a lot of

1484
00:48:46,230 --> 00:48:43,040
different

1485
00:48:49,589 --> 00:48:46,240
coming you know

1486
00:48:51,030 --> 00:48:49,599
into our lives and uh it it made a lot

1487
00:48:53,430 --> 00:48:51,040
of sense

1488
00:48:55,589 --> 00:48:53,440
uh and it seemed to stop as soon as uh

1489
00:48:58,790 --> 00:48:55,599
in fact my grandmother had passed

1490
00:49:00,710 --> 00:48:58,800
like a month after my wife did and after

1491
00:49:02,549 --> 00:49:00,720
that occurred because my father had the

1492
00:49:05,670 --> 00:49:02,559
same thing happened to him

1493
00:49:05,910 --> 00:49:05,680
there's al started showing up to him you

1494
00:49:09,589 --> 00:49:05,920
know

1495
00:49:10,870 --> 00:49:09,599
beside each other and he started seeing

1496
00:49:12,710 --> 00:49:10,880
it as well

1497
00:49:14,470 --> 00:49:12,720
and but then it went away after she

1498
00:49:16,470 --> 00:49:14,480
passed away

1499
00:49:18,309 --> 00:49:16,480
that's that's that's really fascinating

1500
00:49:21,349 --> 00:49:18,319
and that familial component i think is

1501
00:49:23,589 --> 00:49:21,359
is important too yeah i i suspect that i

1502
00:49:25,910 --> 00:49:23,599
suspect that time will be very kind

1503
00:49:27,030 --> 00:49:25,920
to certain people and amongst those i

1504
00:49:29,510 --> 00:49:27,040
suspect are

1505
00:49:31,910 --> 00:49:29,520
are our people like jacques villa and

1506
00:49:33,430 --> 00:49:31,920
mike clelland because i feel like again

1507
00:49:34,710 --> 00:49:33,440
like some of these people like yourself

1508
00:49:36,390 --> 00:49:34,720
that are talking about these sort of

1509
00:49:36,790 --> 00:49:36,400
otter aspects he doesn't shy away from

1510
00:49:38,150 --> 00:49:36,800
it and

1511
00:49:39,750 --> 00:49:38,160
he's just trying to find a way to

1512
00:49:40,870 --> 00:49:39,760
embrace it and i actually heard an

1513
00:49:41,270 --> 00:49:40,880
interview with mike that was one of the

1514
00:49:45,510 --> 00:49:41,280
most

1515
00:49:47,270 --> 00:49:45,520
interviews i've heard in a long time he

1516
00:49:49,589 --> 00:49:47,280
did a really really great job and

1517
00:49:50,630 --> 00:49:49,599
and uh anyway this is this is the love

1518
00:49:54,950 --> 00:49:50,640
mike clelland hour

1519
00:49:56,870 --> 00:49:54,960
on radio no i really respect mike i mean

1520
00:49:58,870 --> 00:49:56,880
his first book was phenomenal

1521
00:50:00,390 --> 00:49:58,880
and he just picked up where he left off

1522
00:50:02,390 --> 00:50:00,400
the second book

1523
00:50:04,069 --> 00:50:02,400
but uh you know i was glad i was able to

1524
00:50:05,990 --> 00:50:04,079
talk to him about this because

1525
00:50:07,109 --> 00:50:06,000
it's something i actually experienced

1526
00:50:08,230 --> 00:50:07,119
you know i experienced a lot of

1527
00:50:09,670 --> 00:50:08,240
different things

1528
00:50:11,190 --> 00:50:09,680
one and the thing the thing the thing

1529
00:50:12,790 --> 00:50:11,200
that i the thing that i admire him the

1530
00:50:14,390 --> 00:50:12,800
most for and this is sort of steering us

1531
00:50:17,430 --> 00:50:14,400
back on track a little bit i guess

1532
00:50:19,589 --> 00:50:17,440
is that he has had some really

1533
00:50:24,950 --> 00:50:19,599
profoundly

1534
00:50:25,750 --> 00:50:24,960
refuses to put them into a box he still

1535
00:50:27,510 --> 00:50:25,760
has wiggle room

1536
00:50:29,270 --> 00:50:27,520
he has some strong suspicions but you

1537
00:50:29,750 --> 00:50:29,280
know and that's what i think that a lot

1538
00:50:32,630 --> 00:50:29,760
of us

1539
00:50:34,630 --> 00:50:32,640
should aspire to because if if he can do

1540
00:50:38,150 --> 00:50:34,640
that with the experiences that he's had

1541
00:50:39,829 --> 00:50:38,160
having seen what we would call grays and

1542
00:50:41,829 --> 00:50:39,839
having had these other things happen

1543
00:50:45,109 --> 00:50:41,839
these things are strongly suggestive of

1544
00:50:46,710 --> 00:50:45,119
of um you know alien abduction if he can

1545
00:50:48,309 --> 00:50:46,720
still sit with that and say i've got

1546
00:50:49,990 --> 00:50:48,319
some suspicions but i don't know

1547
00:50:51,589 --> 00:50:50,000
then those of us who don't have this

1548
00:50:53,430 --> 00:50:51,599
sort of thing happen to us every day can

1549
00:50:55,510 --> 00:50:53,440
at the very least be as open-minded as

1550
00:50:57,750 --> 00:50:55,520
someone like him

1551
00:50:59,589 --> 00:50:57,760
well let's get into the extraterrestrial

1552
00:51:01,750 --> 00:50:59,599
hypothesis you know i'm talking like

1553
00:51:03,750 --> 00:51:01,760
alien hybrid agendas

1554
00:51:05,829 --> 00:51:03,760
uh when i talk about that thing like

1555
00:51:09,109 --> 00:51:05,839
brett oldham and his story uh

1556
00:51:11,190 --> 00:51:09,119
missing fetuses anomalous pregnancies

1557
00:51:14,549 --> 00:51:11,200
what's your thoughts on that

1558
00:51:15,829 --> 00:51:14,559
um so i i've been really resistant to

1559
00:51:19,750 --> 00:51:15,839
that

1560
00:51:22,710 --> 00:51:19,760
uh concept for for for a while

1561
00:51:23,349 --> 00:51:22,720
um because for if you took if you take

1562
00:51:26,870 --> 00:51:23,359
it from a

1563
00:51:29,270 --> 00:51:26,880
purely scientific

1564
00:51:30,390 --> 00:51:29,280
standpoint it shouldn't this there

1565
00:51:35,190 --> 00:51:30,400
shouldn't be any sort of

1566
00:51:36,710 --> 00:51:35,200
ability for us to interbreed with a

1567
00:51:39,510 --> 00:51:36,720
species from another planet

1568
00:51:41,430 --> 00:51:39,520
right and so and of course i know that

1569
00:51:43,270 --> 00:51:41,440
any sufficiently advanced technology

1570
00:51:45,109 --> 00:51:43,280
would appear like magic well yes in that

1571
00:51:46,790 --> 00:51:45,119
case magic would also appear like

1572
00:51:48,790 --> 00:51:46,800
you're like any sufficiently advanced

1573
00:51:50,309 --> 00:51:48,800
technology um

1574
00:51:52,630 --> 00:51:50,319
so i think that if you if you really

1575
00:51:56,069 --> 00:51:52,640
pull out sort of the ways that

1576
00:51:59,430 --> 00:51:56,079
there there are ways that a lot of this

1577
00:52:01,109 --> 00:51:59,440
sort of hybrid program motifs uh

1578
00:52:02,470 --> 00:52:01,119
sort of really do echo the changeling

1579
00:52:03,910 --> 00:52:02,480
phenomena i mean the most obvious thing

1580
00:52:05,750 --> 00:52:03,920
that has been pointed out at nation and

1581
00:52:07,109 --> 00:52:05,760
i'm not the first person to say this

1582
00:52:09,430 --> 00:52:07,119
is the appearance of these hybrids

1583
00:52:11,990 --> 00:52:09,440
oftentimes look just like

1584
00:52:12,470 --> 00:52:12,000
um look just like changelings would have

1585
00:52:16,390 --> 00:52:12,480
they'd be

1586
00:52:18,870 --> 00:52:16,400
arms and legs a lot of changelings had

1587
00:52:20,069 --> 00:52:18,880
large eyes and large heads they'd be

1588
00:52:21,190 --> 00:52:20,079
listless and wouldn't want to do

1589
00:52:22,230 --> 00:52:21,200
anything these are the exact same

1590
00:52:22,950 --> 00:52:22,240
descriptions that you get from these

1591
00:52:26,549 --> 00:52:22,960
hybrids

1592
00:52:28,309 --> 00:52:26,559
similarly um there's this encouragement

1593
00:52:29,829 --> 00:52:28,319
for these mothers when they're in this

1594
00:52:31,430 --> 00:52:29,839
baby presentation scenario they've been

1595
00:52:32,470 --> 00:52:31,440
taken aboard the craft in modern

1596
00:52:35,109 --> 00:52:32,480
abduction literature

1597
00:52:36,790 --> 00:52:35,119
by the aliens the aliens always say hold

1598
00:52:38,230 --> 00:52:36,800
it nurse it well

1599
00:52:39,990 --> 00:52:38,240
holding and nursing are two things that

1600
00:52:40,870 --> 00:52:40,000
you find in changing lore as well i mean

1601
00:52:43,349 --> 00:52:40,880
there's a common

1602
00:52:44,150 --> 00:52:43,359
it's a very common irish uh motif that

1603
00:52:45,990 --> 00:52:44,160
you'll find in other parts of the

1604
00:52:46,710 --> 00:52:46,000
british trials of the the midwife to the

1605
00:52:48,790 --> 00:52:46,720
fairies

1606
00:52:50,309 --> 00:52:48,800
which is where a woman is taken to help

1607
00:52:52,710 --> 00:52:50,319
a fairy mother give birth and in

1608
00:52:54,309 --> 00:52:52,720
all these cases she has to touch the

1609
00:52:55,990 --> 00:52:54,319
mother in order for it to give birth

1610
00:52:56,950 --> 00:52:56,000
similarly that concept of nursing at a

1611
00:52:58,549 --> 00:52:56,960
human breast

1612
00:53:00,150 --> 00:52:58,559
is exactly what we talked about in the

1613
00:53:01,750 --> 00:53:00,160
changeling phenomena earlier

1614
00:53:04,549 --> 00:53:01,760
sometimes these motifs express

1615
00:53:06,150 --> 00:53:04,559
themselves in interesting ways um

1616
00:53:07,829 --> 00:53:06,160
you know if you've got something like

1617
00:53:09,829 --> 00:53:07,839
these concepts of star children or

1618
00:53:11,670 --> 00:53:09,839
indigo children these ideas that they're

1619
00:53:13,670 --> 00:53:11,680
alien human hybrids living among their

1620
00:53:15,510 --> 00:53:13,680
parents it's sort of an inversion

1621
00:53:17,109 --> 00:53:15,520
of the of the changing narrative because

1622
00:53:18,069 --> 00:53:17,119
now the parents are the ones who don't

1623
00:53:20,309 --> 00:53:18,079
belong there

1624
00:53:22,230 --> 00:53:20,319
um so you can find these things if you

1625
00:53:24,150 --> 00:53:22,240
look at it

1626
00:53:26,150 --> 00:53:24,160
basically what i try to do is i try to

1627
00:53:27,510 --> 00:53:26,160
look at it as a folklorist but believe

1628
00:53:30,069 --> 00:53:27,520
in it like a

1629
00:53:31,430 --> 00:53:30,079
like an anomalous basically you know

1630
00:53:32,870 --> 00:53:31,440
because i think that that's what

1631
00:53:34,710 --> 00:53:32,880
whatever whatever we're dealing with

1632
00:53:35,990 --> 00:53:34,720
this these sort of phenomena i think

1633
00:53:37,430 --> 00:53:36,000
that's what they do i think they're

1634
00:53:39,190 --> 00:53:37,440
inside our heads

1635
00:53:41,030 --> 00:53:39,200
um and i think that they will take these

1636
00:53:41,990 --> 00:53:41,040
things and make them conform and adapt

1637
00:53:44,150 --> 00:53:42,000
to our cultures

1638
00:53:45,349 --> 00:53:44,160
and it's it's it's no more apparent

1639
00:53:46,950 --> 00:53:45,359
really than in the alien

1640
00:53:48,309 --> 00:53:46,960
hybrid program in the alien hybrid

1641
00:53:49,109 --> 00:53:48,319
program you see in literature one of the

1642
00:53:49,750 --> 00:53:49,119
things that i thought was really

1643
00:53:51,270 --> 00:53:49,760
interesting

1644
00:53:53,349 --> 00:53:51,280
is that you'll actually find some

1645
00:53:55,990 --> 00:53:53,359
specific examples of

1646
00:53:57,270 --> 00:53:56,000
children who um are basically

1647
00:53:58,630 --> 00:53:57,280
changelings i mean uh there was one

1648
00:54:00,150 --> 00:53:58,640
story that jenny randalls talked about

1649
00:54:02,549 --> 00:54:00,160
who was an abductee

1650
00:54:04,150 --> 00:54:02,559
who uh whose child was sitting in the

1651
00:54:05,270 --> 00:54:04,160
baby carriage and suddenly began

1652
00:54:07,589 --> 00:54:05,280
crying and she said that she knew at

1653
00:54:09,270 --> 00:54:07,599
that moment her child had received an

1654
00:54:11,430 --> 00:54:09,280
alien soul well that's the changeling

1655
00:54:12,790 --> 00:54:11,440
narrative right there um there's there's

1656
00:54:14,390 --> 00:54:12,800
another one that i

1657
00:54:16,390 --> 00:54:14,400
thought was really interesting um i'm a

1658
00:54:19,270 --> 00:54:16,400
big fan of carla turner's work

1659
00:54:20,790 --> 00:54:19,280
and uh she in several books discussed

1660
00:54:22,150 --> 00:54:20,800
the case of ted rice

1661
00:54:25,270 --> 00:54:22,160
and he remembered when he was eight

1662
00:54:26,390 --> 00:54:25,280
years old he was taken up in this giant

1663
00:54:29,349 --> 00:54:26,400
storm

1664
00:54:30,230 --> 00:54:29,359
to what he what he believed was a ufo

1665
00:54:32,390 --> 00:54:30,240
and he met

1666
00:54:33,910 --> 00:54:32,400
these who took his body his soul out of

1667
00:54:35,430 --> 00:54:33,920
one body and placed in the other body

1668
00:54:35,910 --> 00:54:35,440
and returned him home on this whirlwind

1669
00:54:37,990 --> 00:54:35,920
well

1670
00:54:39,510 --> 00:54:38,000
the whirlwindism is something you find

1671
00:54:41,030 --> 00:54:39,520
as a means of travel and fairy in the

1672
00:54:43,589 --> 00:54:41,040
war as we talked about earlier

1673
00:54:45,670 --> 00:54:43,599
um and this idea of the his his cloned

1674
00:54:47,030 --> 00:54:45,680
body being sort of a changeling body

1675
00:54:48,549 --> 00:54:47,040
i mean these are all motifs that really

1676
00:54:50,309 --> 00:54:48,559
do express themselves time and time

1677
00:54:51,910 --> 00:54:50,319
again

1678
00:54:53,510 --> 00:54:51,920
and we scratch the surface folks i

1679
00:54:55,670 --> 00:54:53,520
promise there's more there's yeah

1680
00:54:57,190 --> 00:54:55,680
there's a lot there you know now one

1681
00:54:57,510 --> 00:54:57,200
thing i do want to talk about before we

1682
00:55:01,510 --> 00:54:57,520
go

1683
00:55:03,190 --> 00:55:01,520
is um uh a modern phenomena this slender

1684
00:55:04,710 --> 00:55:03,200
man thing and you do kind of talk about

1685
00:55:06,950 --> 00:55:04,720
it in the book a bit

1686
00:55:08,309 --> 00:55:06,960
uh i personally believe it's uh a

1687
00:55:10,870 --> 00:55:08,319
thought form

1688
00:55:12,950 --> 00:55:10,880
but when when you start talking about

1689
00:55:15,910 --> 00:55:12,960
thought forms i mean these things can

1690
00:55:18,309 --> 00:55:15,920
really manifest into something pretty

1691
00:55:21,510 --> 00:55:18,319
bad i mean you talk about poltergeist

1692
00:55:24,950 --> 00:55:21,520
phenomena that's exactly what it is

1693
00:55:25,829 --> 00:55:24,960
so is the slender man another type of a

1694
00:55:28,309 --> 00:55:25,839
poltergeist

1695
00:55:30,710 --> 00:55:28,319
that you know people or kids for the

1696
00:55:33,750 --> 00:55:30,720
most part are imagining being abducted

1697
00:55:36,549 --> 00:55:33,760
and in the case in wisconsin where the

1698
00:55:39,190 --> 00:55:36,559
these two girls attempted to murder this

1699
00:55:40,710 --> 00:55:39,200
other girl for slender man

1700
00:55:42,950 --> 00:55:40,720
yeah i suspect that you're right in a

1701
00:55:44,630 --> 00:55:42,960
lot of cases and i suspect also that

1702
00:55:46,630 --> 00:55:44,640
again this idea of whatever this is is

1703
00:55:47,430 --> 00:55:46,640
more tied to us than even we realize i

1704
00:55:49,589 --> 00:55:47,440
mean a lot of

1705
00:55:51,109 --> 00:55:49,599
normalists and anomalists like to poopoo

1706
00:55:53,829 --> 00:55:51,119
the idea that perhaps we're just dealing

1707
00:55:55,349 --> 00:55:53,839
with some sort of exteriorization of our

1708
00:55:56,789 --> 00:55:55,359
subconscious or something along those

1709
00:55:58,230 --> 00:55:56,799
lines those lines but it's still

1710
00:55:59,430 --> 00:55:58,240
fascinating if that's the case i mean oh

1711
00:56:02,069 --> 00:55:59,440
my god that's that's that's

1712
00:56:03,430 --> 00:56:02,079
reality changing so i suspect that

1713
00:56:05,270 --> 00:56:03,440
whenever you get people really pushing

1714
00:56:06,789 --> 00:56:05,280
back against the top idea which i've not

1715
00:56:07,910 --> 00:56:06,799
always been a fan of in the past but

1716
00:56:09,670 --> 00:56:07,920
i've come around to

1717
00:56:11,430 --> 00:56:09,680
i suspect that they're probably

1718
00:56:14,549 --> 00:56:11,440
rejecting something like that

1719
00:56:18,069 --> 00:56:14,559
the i suspect

1720
00:56:19,510 --> 00:56:18,079
that the types of entities that people

1721
00:56:22,549 --> 00:56:19,520
see

1722
00:56:23,670 --> 00:56:22,559
um you know being so wide and varied i

1723
00:56:25,030 --> 00:56:23,680
mean

1724
00:56:26,710 --> 00:56:25,040
you know take a look at this albert

1725
00:56:28,630 --> 00:56:26,720
resales work if you don't believe me the

1726
00:56:30,950 --> 00:56:28,640
things that people see are so

1727
00:56:32,470 --> 00:56:30,960
wide and varied and bizarre i think

1728
00:56:34,950 --> 00:56:32,480
there has to be a component of that

1729
00:56:36,870 --> 00:56:34,960
involved there has to be some sort of

1730
00:56:38,710 --> 00:56:36,880
the term that my good friend greg bishop

1731
00:56:40,230 --> 00:56:38,720
uses a lot some sort of co-creative

1732
00:56:42,390 --> 00:56:40,240
component of us

1733
00:56:43,349 --> 00:56:42,400
feeding this whatever these things are

1734
00:56:45,109 --> 00:56:43,359
images that

1735
00:56:46,470 --> 00:56:45,119
mean something to us or something to our

1736
00:56:48,150 --> 00:56:46,480
culture and i think that the

1737
00:56:49,670 --> 00:56:48,160
slenderman is probably a really good

1738
00:56:51,829 --> 00:56:49,680
example of that there's

1739
00:56:53,109 --> 00:56:51,839
there's something weird about slenderman

1740
00:56:54,870 --> 00:56:53,119
that you can't just write off

1741
00:56:57,190 --> 00:56:54,880
and ascribe to pop culture that's for

1742
00:56:58,710 --> 00:56:57,200
sure well you know it's

1743
00:57:00,230 --> 00:56:58,720
and i believe it's more of an internet

1744
00:57:01,270 --> 00:57:00,240
phenomena than anything else it's

1745
00:57:02,789 --> 00:57:01,280
something that

1746
00:57:04,950 --> 00:57:02,799
you know if it wasn't for the internet

1747
00:57:08,069 --> 00:57:04,960
it probably wouldn't even started

1748
00:57:11,109 --> 00:57:08,079
and um you know i think we can expect

1749
00:57:12,950 --> 00:57:11,119
more of these in fact uh

1750
00:57:14,789 --> 00:57:12,960
you know these memes turning into a

1751
00:57:17,990 --> 00:57:14,799
possible entity

1752
00:57:19,750 --> 00:57:18,000
of some type uh you know

1753
00:57:21,030 --> 00:57:19,760
is it wishful thinking you know part i

1754
00:57:22,470 --> 00:57:21,040
don't know well

1755
00:57:24,390 --> 00:57:22,480
maybe it's something i want to see but i

1756
00:57:26,069 --> 00:57:24,400
i don't know i think that might be tied

1757
00:57:27,430 --> 00:57:26,079
into the fact that we don't exactly

1758
00:57:29,030 --> 00:57:27,440
know what we're creating with the

1759
00:57:31,349 --> 00:57:29,040
internet yet i think that it's evolving

1760
00:57:34,549 --> 00:57:31,359
into something and i don't know

1761
00:57:35,190 --> 00:57:34,559
you know if if we can do if we can have

1762
00:57:36,870 --> 00:57:35,200
some sort of

1763
00:57:38,470 --> 00:57:36,880
effect on our reality with our brains

1764
00:57:39,910 --> 00:57:38,480
how complex does

1765
00:57:41,270 --> 00:57:39,920
artificial intelligence and or the

1766
00:57:41,670 --> 00:57:41,280
internet have to become before it can

1767
00:57:45,190 --> 00:57:41,680
have

1768
00:57:46,390 --> 00:57:45,200
similar effects um so josh uh

1769
00:57:48,630 --> 00:57:46,400
once you tell everybody where they can

1770
00:57:50,309 --> 00:57:48,640
get a hold of you and what

1771
00:57:52,069 --> 00:57:50,319
what you have planned in the future

1772
00:57:54,069 --> 00:57:52,079
what's going on do you have any

1773
00:57:55,430 --> 00:57:54,079
conferences or such you're going to be

1774
00:57:56,710 --> 00:57:55,440
at or do you have another book in the

1775
00:58:01,190 --> 00:57:56,720
works

1776
00:58:04,150 --> 00:58:01,200
i uh i can be found at joshuacutchin.com

1777
00:58:05,430 --> 00:58:04,160
um all the books can be found on amazon

1778
00:58:07,589 --> 00:58:05,440
or barnes's noble

1779
00:58:08,950 --> 00:58:07,599
or you know bug your local book retailer

1780
00:58:10,150 --> 00:58:08,960
too if you want to your

1781
00:58:12,069 --> 00:58:10,160
brick-and-mortar retailer if you have

1782
00:58:13,510 --> 00:58:12,079
one um

1783
00:58:14,789 --> 00:58:13,520
as far as what i have in the future i'm

1784
00:58:15,589 --> 00:58:14,799
toying with a couple different ideas and

1785
00:58:17,270 --> 00:58:15,599
i really don't

1786
00:58:19,109 --> 00:58:17,280
know where i want to go next i've got an

1787
00:58:20,069 --> 00:58:19,119
idea for a fiction book i've got an idea

1788
00:58:21,990 --> 00:58:20,079
for another

1789
00:58:23,829 --> 00:58:22,000
book on you know non speculative

1790
00:58:25,430 --> 00:58:23,839
nonfiction on the paranormal um i'm not

1791
00:58:26,710 --> 00:58:25,440
really sure yet i'm still trying to bask

1792
00:58:28,630 --> 00:58:26,720
in the glow of having this

1793
00:58:30,230 --> 00:58:28,640
done and out the door as far as

1794
00:58:31,990 --> 00:58:30,240
appearances um

1795
00:58:33,829 --> 00:58:32,000
i have some stuff coming up in the new

1796
00:58:35,190 --> 00:58:33,839
year uh for some reason i don't get

1797
00:58:36,549 --> 00:58:35,200
invited to a lot of conferences maybe

1798
00:58:38,549 --> 00:58:36,559
because i don't i don't throw the party

1799
00:58:40,870 --> 00:58:38,559
line but

1800
00:58:44,470 --> 00:58:40,880
but um yeah i think the same boat there

1801
00:58:47,670 --> 00:58:46,230
i do have an i do have some stuff that's

1802
00:58:48,789 --> 00:58:47,680
coming up in the year that i just want

1803
00:58:49,990 --> 00:58:48,799
to be a little bit more firm before i

1804
00:58:50,870 --> 00:58:50,000
make some announcements but that'll be

1805
00:58:53,910 --> 00:58:50,880
that'll be happening

1806
00:58:57,270 --> 00:58:53,920
uh soon so uh that's that's sort of

1807
00:58:58,549 --> 00:58:57,280
the four one one on me well joshua

1808
00:59:01,270 --> 00:58:58,559
thanks for coming on with me you're

1809
00:59:03,910 --> 00:59:01,280
always welcome to come back and uh

1810
00:59:06,230 --> 00:59:03,920
i look forward to reading and talking to

1811
00:59:08,630 --> 00:59:06,240
you and uh

1812
00:59:09,670 --> 00:59:08,640
you take care and have a great weekend

1813
00:59:13,270 --> 00:59:09,680
thanks so much

1814
00:59:15,270 --> 00:59:13,280
as well now before i go

1815
00:59:17,109 --> 00:59:15,280
uh allow me to leave this with the

1816
00:59:19,349 --> 00:59:17,119
listeners um

1817
00:59:20,870 --> 00:59:19,359
you know there are incidents that cause

1818
00:59:23,510 --> 00:59:20,880
sudden upheaval

1819
00:59:25,670 --> 00:59:23,520
and disorder in each of our lives you

1820
00:59:27,670 --> 00:59:25,680
know i've learned that it's not healthy

1821
00:59:28,950 --> 00:59:27,680
to what to dwell on things you can't

1822
00:59:31,829 --> 00:59:28,960
control

1823
00:59:33,670 --> 00:59:31,839
but on the other hand the worst part of

1824
00:59:35,589 --> 00:59:33,680
being lied to

1825
00:59:38,390 --> 00:59:35,599
is knowing that in the eyes of someone

1826
00:59:42,230 --> 00:59:38,400
you trusted you weren't worth the truth

1827
00:59:44,630 --> 00:59:42,240
the truth may hurt but doubt causes ruin

1828
00:59:46,470 --> 00:59:44,640
and lies can destroy

1829
00:59:58,829 --> 00:59:46,480
i thank everyone for their support and